Monday, June 11, 2012

Ramses II and/or Merneptah and the Islamic miracle of the preserved Pharaoh

We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam)." (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! "This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!"[Qur'ân 10:90-92]

I've posted before on this but it seems that many Muslims and putative Western converts are still falling for this errant nonsense because of the lies (I use the word advisedly) told by the charlatan Yusuf Estes (seen in the above video) and others.


The mummy shown in this particular video is that of Ramses II. Ramses II was the mummy displayed in Dallas that Estes says he visited and saw behind the glass case with its mouth open leading to the comment, "What do you think he was saying, huh? Oh God!..." According to Estes this is the mummy of the Pharaoh that Allah saved as a sign for all mankind so we might believe in him. It is also, according to Estes, the mummy that Maurice Bucaille examined. (Actually it was the mummy of Merneptah that Bucaille writes about in his book but we'll come to that later)
In the video, Estes says that Bucaille was astounded that the Muslim scholars in the Cairo museum knew about the preserved Pharoah. He even tries to suggest that Bucaille knew nothing of the Qur'an. "They said we know (about the mummy being preserved) because it's in the Qur'an. He (Bucaille) said, ""The what?"". What a disingenuous, patronising toad you are, Yusuf Estes! Bucaille had been the Saudi royal family's physician for two years by this stage (He was employed in 1973). Are you seriously suggesting that he had never heard of the Qur'an?
In any case, let's deal with the claim that Ramses II was the Pharaoh who chased Moses and the Israelites into the Red Sea on a chariot. Here is what Wikipedia has to say about Ramses II - my bolding (I've kept in the references so that those interested can follow them up):
Ramesses II was originally buried in the tomb KV7 in the Valley of the Kings but, because of looting, priests later transferred the body to a holding area, re-wrapped it, and placed it inside the tomb of queen Inhapy. 72 hours later it was again moved, to the tomb of the high priest Pinudjem II. All of this is recorded in hieroglyphics on the linen covering the body.[57] His mummy is today in Cairo's Egyptian Museum.
The pharaoh's mummy reveals a hooked nose and strong jaw, and stands at some 1.7 metres (5 ft 7 in).[58] His ultimate successor was his thirteenth son, Merneptah.
Mummy of Ramesses II
In 1974 Egyptologists visiting his tomb noticed that the mummy's condition was rapidly deteriorating and flew it to Paris for examination.[59] Ramesses II was issued an Egyptian passport that listed his occupation as "King (deceased)".[60] The mummy was received at Le Bourget airport, just outside Paris, with the full military honours befitting a king.[61]In Paris, it was found that Ramesses's mummy was being attacked by fungus, which it was treated for. During the examination, scientific analysis revealed battle wounds and old fractures, as well as the pharaoh's arthritis and poor circulation.
Egyptologists were also interested by the mummy's noticeably thin neck. An X-ray revealed that the neck had a piece of wood lodged into the upper chest, essentially keeping the head in place. It is believed that during the mummification process the head had accidentally been knocked off by those performing the mummification. In Egyptian culture if any part of the body were to come off, the soul of the body would not continue to exist in the afterlife, so those performing the mummification carefully placed the head back and lodged a wooden stick into the neck in order to keep the head in place.[citation needed]It is believed that Ramesses II was essentially crippled with arthritis and walked with a hunched back for the last decades of his life.[62] A recent study excluded ankylosing spondylitis as a possible cause of the pharaoh's arthritis.[63] A significant hole in the pharaoh's mandible was detected. Researchers observed "an abscess by his teeth (which) was serious enough to have caused death by infection, although this cannot be determined with certainty." Microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the king's hair was originally red, which suggests that he came from a family of redheads.[64] This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the god Seth, the slayer of Osiris, and the name of Ramesses II's father, Seti I, means "follower of Seth."[65] After Ramesses's mummy returned to Egypt it was visited by President Anwar Sadat and his wife.
This 90 year-old cripple, mummified in the usual way and found in the Valley of the Kings in a tomb like any other mummy, is the one that Yusuf Estes claims is the Pharaoh who chased the Israelites by chariot into the Red Sea, was drowned by Allah, whose body was miraculously preserved and which shows signs of drowning.


So what of Merneptah, the mummy that Bucaille actually writes about in his book? In a New York Times book review in 1991, Malcolm Brown, science reporter, had this to say about Bucaille's book:

It is hard for an armchair archeologist to dislike a book about mummies, particularly one that describes the mortal remains of a pharaoh supposed to have been killed while pursuing Moses during the Exodus. "Mummies of the Pharaohs," however, is so severely flawed that neither specialist nor casual reader will find much to savor.
Maurice Bucaille, a member of the French Society of Egyptology and a medical doctor, was uniquely privileged during the mid-1970's to conduct forensic examinations of the royal mummies at the Cairo Museum. His book, adequately translated by the author and Alastair D. Pannell, offers some interesting sidelights on these examinations. We learn, for example, that Merneptah, son and successor of Pharaoh Ramses II, probably had his head bashed in around 1204 B.C. while chasing the Hebrews.
Dr. Bucaille asserts that results of a forensic examination of Merneptah's mummy are consistent with the biblical account of the pharaoh's death, in which the Red Sea, miraculously parted for the Hebrews, closes over the Egyptians. The author does not make it quite clear how a surge of water would produce the massive cranial trauma evident in the mummy, but never mind. This is but one of many questions the author leaves hanging.
Because Dr. Bucaille's patients included members of the family of President Anwar Sadat of Egypt, he was given considerable freedom to inspect the royal mummies.
The doctor's major conclusion was that fungus was causing them to decay rapidly in the moist heat of the Cairo Museum, where they had lain devoid of protective wrappings since their discovery at the end of the 19th century.While Dr. Bucaille makes a good case that the royal mummies have been persistently ill used ever since their discovery, too much of his book is devoted to petulant criticism of Egyptologists and museum officials, notably Christiane Desroches-Noblecourt, director of Egyptian antiquities at the Louvre. Dr. Bucaille's feuds leave little room for the mummies; his book badly needs rehabilitation by a professional writer or editor. 
Here is what Wikipedia has to say about Merneptah (again, links left in):
Merneptah suffered from arthritis and arteriosclerosis in old age and died after a reign which lasted for nearly a decade. Merneptah was originally buried within tomb KV8 in the Valley of the Kings, but his mummy was not found there. In 1898 it was located along with eighteen other mummies in the mummy cache found in the tomb of Amenhotep II (KV35) by Victor Loret. Merneptah's mummy was taken to Cairo and eventually unwrapped by Dr. G. Elliott Smith on July 8, 1907. Dr Smith notes that:The body is that of an old man and is 1 meter 714 millimeters in height. Merenptah was almost completely bald, only a narrow fringe of white hair (now cut so close as to be seen only with difficulty) remaining on the temples and occiput. A few short (about 2 mill) black hairs were found on the upper lip and scattered, closely clipped hairs on the cheeks and chin. The general aspect of the face recalls that of Ramesses II, but the form of the cranium and the measurements of the face much more nearly agree with those of his [grand]father, Seti the Great.[8] 
So once again there is no suggestion of miraculous preservation. The Merneptah mummy is unremarkable. It was preserved using the normal mummification techniques. Experts suggest Merneptah was an arthritic cripple aged around 70 when he died.

Apart from Bucaille - who at the time of his examination of the mummy was employed as the family physician to King Faisal of Saudi Arabia  and was also treating President Anwar Sadat of Egypt, as well as being well into his infamous treatise on Islam and science - no one has ever suggested that either mummy showed signs of drowning or even a violent death. 


The other Egyptologists who who studied the mummies with Bucaille disagreed profoundly with his conclusions and appear to have been a little frustrated with his obsession.
 En avril 1976, Maurice Bucaille remis ses conclusions. Il constata que Mérenptah dût mourir de traumatismes multiples très importants. En effet des traces de chocs violents reçus de son vivant étaient visibles sur plusieurs parties du corps : Arrière de l'abdomen, thorax enfoncé, idem pour la voûte crânienne qui indique une mort quasi instantanée et de nombreuses lésions sur le côté droit du corps. Cette interprétation des blessures est remise en question par Salima Ikram et Aidan Marc Dodson qui voient dans les nombreuses traces de violence dont a souffert la momie du souverain, l'intervention brutale des voleurs de sépultures. 
It is also to be noted that Bucaille's official report at the time apparently made no mention of his conviction that Merneptah had drowned.

So what are we to make of this miracle claim?

It seems clear that Bucaille saw a chance to enhance his reputation among his powerful new Muslim friends by  making the outrageous claim that Merneptah was the Pharaoh of the (in all likelihood, mythological) Exodus. This was then picked up and exaggerated beyond parody by various Muslim dawah sites and miracle seekers. 


And let's be clear why this is so important. As Yusuf Estes says, this is considered "the most important and impressive miracle of the prophet Muhammad" by a huge number of followers and has convinced innumerable people of the divine nature of the Qur'an.


And there is NO EVIDENCE FOR IT WHATSOEVER.


PS In case any miracle seeker reading this wants to mention salt in the body cavity as evidence of drowning...natron (a mixture of salt and baking soda) was used as part of the preservation technique on all mummies). It's presence is indicative of mummification. NO MIRACLE.

Think I'm making this up about poor gullible miracle seekers? This is typical:
One more sign that proves God exists and powerful is was the discovery of the pharaoh's body in the red sea. The Qur'an tells of the prophet Moses and his followers were chased by the pharaoh and his army. By His power, God splits the sea and drowned Pharaoh and his followers.
All creatures including sea was submissive and obedient to God. How about we as human beings much more perfect?his body (Pharaoh's body) was only discovered in 1898 but the Quran existed nearly 1400 years ago. That is the dead body of Ramses II, The Egyptian King in the era of Prophet Moses (PBUH), it's age is approximately 3000 years old and it was found by the Red Sea at the place called Jabalain. Now in the Royal Mummies Chamber of Egyptian Museum in Cairo.
What is the secret of such good preservation of this body?Dr. Maurice Bucaille was a head and the leader of a group of physicians concern on rebuilding in France. That was in 1981. The result has shown that the residue of salt inside his body was evidence that he died by drowning.
Morris was preparing on final report on what was believed to be a "new discovery" in a Pharaoh's body. Till he was told that Muslims talk about drowning of this mummy he was very surprised!! after he read the story of Pharaoh's drowning in the QuranSource : Ahmad Deedat Channel

93 comments:

  1. Great details. Even with his manner of presentation that Estes guy comes across as a charlatan.

    I don't know how Muslims can claim the prophecy was fulfilled that Pharaoh's body would be a sign to future generations (if that's what it means) when we don't know which Pharaoh is the sign, or even have reason to believe any of the events occured. Which body exactly is this sign we are supposed to heed? What is the sign with the proposed candidates - that the Qur'anic story about their being in any physical state to ride chariots and cause of death is unsupported by evidence?

    Doesn't it bother them also that Allah would be accomplishing his sign by means of a polytheistic religion's burial rituals?

    They could retreat and say that it is at least a miracle that the author of the Qur'an knew that Pharoahs in general were preserved. But did he know? It just talks about one specific guy, who may or may not have existed, may or may not have been preserved, and the wording may or may not mean that his body would be preserved and rediscovered.

    Captaindisguise also has a very good and detailed youtube vid debunking the claims of Estes and others about this subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS1Mn90T2Bc&feature=g-all-c

    Btw, thanks for the blog link you added!

    Martin

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  2. And so this is a FAILED prophesy. Where is the Pharaoh that Allah has preserved for us as a sign?
    A failed prophesy means that the Qur'an is false.
    Any Muslim care to dispute this?

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    1. excuse me but the body was found next to the read sea as Allah (swt) states in another chapter that he was drowened when he tried to stop musa and the children of isreil escaping and he brought his body ashore as a sign for mankind. and I bet that the other bodies discovered where not discovered near the dead sea and other scientists have proved this as true , read the following:The dead Body of Pharao Ramess 2 was found from Red Sea in 1898 A.d.

      As it,s dead sure mentioned in Surah Yunus no 10 verse no 92. Doctor Maurice Bucaille examined the dead body in 1981 and he declared that it was the same

      Firoun who drowned in Red Sea. Dr M.Bucaille became Muslim aft finding the

      reality. Research by Prof Liaquat Ali Azeem

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    2. All of that research is fake. Rameses II and Merneptah both were found in the Valley of the Kings, along with every other mummy ever found, which is nowhere close to the Red Sea. And the fact that his body was preserved is no miracle, the bodies of all the Ancient Egyptian kings were salted and preserved by their priests. That's the only way that you get a mummy moron.
      Muslims lie to one another and then like to feel comfortable in their lies. But a lie told a thousand times over does not become the truth.

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    3. If Yusuf Estates said Ramses II was the Pharaoh mummy in question, then he’s completely wrong. He was talking about Mernepath.

      First of all, did such a Pharaoh exist?

      In 1898, Professor Victor Loret discovered a mummified body in Egypt, in the tomb of the Necropolis at Thebes, believed to be the Pharaoh, Mernepath. However, in July 8, 1907, Grafton Elliot Smith, a doctor of medicine, with a field interest in the anatomy of the human brain, carried out an extensive scientific examination. Grafton Elliot Smith acknowledged the body was Mernepath.

      Archaeologists believed Mernepath to be drowned in the Red Sea. This gave credibility to biblical evidence. In the book of Exodus: 'And the waters returned, and covered the 'chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.'

      Although this substantiates the Bible’s and the Quran’s account of events surrounding Mernepath’s life. Merepath’s account of his death diverges in both religions. The discovery of his body falsifies the biblical narration. The Quran narration that Mernepath’s body was rescued and found, whether you like it or not, give a strong evidential testimony.

      In Surat Yūnus (Jonah) 10:90:

      And We took the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh and his soldiers pursued them in tyranny and enmity until, when drowning overtook him, he said, "I believe that there is no deity except that in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of the Muslims."

      10:91: Now? And you had disobeyed [Him] before and were of the corrupters?

      10:92: So today We will save you in body that you may be to those who succeed you a sign. And indeed, many among the people, of Our signs, are heedless. (Reference: Sahih International).

      How did the Quran know of Mernepath’s deceased body, when archaeologists who first assumed the body to be lost at sea, then concede the body to be found? This is unshakable proof. Is the Quran the truth? In light of the Qurannic verses mentioned, you can’t refute the verses. There’s a very, very, strong case, this to be true.

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  3. Hello this is a great post.
    I have made a detailed video debunking the muslim claims. They can be found in this video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS1Mn90T2Bc

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    1. Hi CaptainD. I enjoyed your video - thanks for the link.
      Let us hope that the truth eventually wins out and the liars and charlatans have to face up to what they are doing.
      We can but hope...

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  4. this is not something to say haha in ur face im a muslim and this has just made me feel like shit

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    1. Hi blal,
      I don't think I ever belittle Muslims. I try get them to examine the claims made by miracle seekers sincerely.
      If you genuinely want to find the truth then I suggest you ask questions and challenge assumptions.
      We are all doing the same thing.
      I don't think Muslims are any better or worse than any of us.
      I believe the majority simply had the misfortune to be born into a society/family where such belief was expected. Some brave Muslims have started to question.
      Good luck to them..and to you.

      Delete
  5. i here what your saying but sometimes we have to ask our selves how amazing this world actually is and everything thats in it sometimes even taking the the smallest thing away can make big drastic changes us humans are on top of the food chain and everything thats below us seems to thrive and live to keep us alive including them selves sometimes thinking deep into matters helps sometime analyse relgion because every single plant animal human that lives today all seem to connect to each other like the circle of life in the lion king and that has to come into everyones mind that we have purpose and reason of our exsitence i mean if i had thought to my self their is nothing when i die and that is the end blank and this was my one chance and one life i get i probably wouldnt be sitting typing this now unemployed living my life struggling it wouldnt matter to change my ways to bad than good and become whoever i wanted to be and move in this world reclessly and have that sense of fear in my soul and depression sometimes beliveing helps alot and when u have faith it sets ur soul at rest id would rather belive and not take the risk because when u dont belive in anything u cant take it back and we can all admit regret is the worst feelings and thoughts we can have especially if theirs conseqeunces but what i also wanted to say was the quran has so many miracles so many i dont know any other book that does but with so many signs and wonders even if theirs just one and its right we should all be amazed because its amazing also i wanted to say that three religions christianty jewdaism and islam seem to belive in pretty much the same things yet the relgions are totattly different time spans and on top of that they dont even seem to belive eachother except islam who mention the gospel and torah when i read this thing you wrote i really started doing my research i personally dont think that ramses is the pharoh that grew up with moses my fisrt therioe is that as we no about the ten plagues their is the plague where god sends this gentle breese i think to my knowledge and it kills all the sons of egypt so making ramses have no sons but then theirs ramses the 3 so that dosent really make sense but my opion is i dont know but its not a straight fact that pharoh is the pharoh of moses also the research i found out was that its a fact in hylogriphics that the isreal people of moses did live in egypt and that prophet joseph exsited aswell well so sorry for waffeling on and for all my spelling errors im not the smarest of people lol but i really wanted to say all this i hope it might change your opoion a little thankyou if u decided to read this all without getting bored lol

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  6. Allah knows best whether it is or isnt the pharoah who was wiped away by the seas whilst chasing Moosa (AS). I am no "mirical seeker" as you put it, I simply have faith in my religion.

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  7. Thank you for your comment, Anon.
    May I ask why you have faith in your religion? What is it that convinces you that the words in the Qur'an are the actual uncreated words of God?

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    1. Dear missled spinoza i have a question fr you " can u explain why Quran is known as the best book of embryology " suit yourself an answer because it were the non muslim scientists who decleared it so n dear your work makes me laugh fr i read it just fr fun cause by trying to make fun of. Quran u make fun of jesus as well cause belive me dear we love n respect jesus as well so are actually better christians then u dear. Do answer my question

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  8. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    1. Pity you removed your comment, Islam. I read it with interest.
      Did you remove it because you felt you no longer believed what you wrote?
      I would certainly enjoy debating some of the points you raised if you'd like to post the comment again.

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  9. document.getElementById('Blog1').style.visibility="hidden";

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  10. We, Muslims, are not "miracle seeker".
    We do N-O-T need any proof or fact of the existence of GOD. We know it in our heart, we have the faith. You cannot do anything about that.
    We also know that even with the most scientific evidences there will be people who will never believe in God and in Muhammed as the last Prophet, the Coran warned us about this fact :

    10:97 Indeed, those upon whom the word of your Lord has come into effect will not believe,
    10:98 Even if every sign should come to them, until they see the painful punishment.

    We can only write back a letter to you to encourage you to read the Coran and to sincerely seek the truth.

    If you do God will guide you.



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    1. Wow, willfull ignorance at its best. How do intelligent people tell fake from real without proof? Would u sit in prison quietly because u were convicted of a crime without proof? How about your Prophet muhammad was a PEDOPHILE, the PROOF is the SUNNAH. I guess you DONT NEED THAT either. Shalama Alakhom

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  11. Hi Mohamed,
    Thanks for your comment. You say you are not miracle seekers but then in the very next line proceed to mention the "scientific evidences".
    There are none. That is my point. This is a new development. Islam has been hijacked by modernists (often Western converts)who are obsessed with "proving" the miraculous nature of the Qur'an - thus denying the need for faith.
    I would never presume to question someone's faith provided:
    1. they don't try to convert me
    2. their faith doesn't harm others
    3. they don't claim things which a patently not true

    I'm afraid the modern version of Islam we see pushed by iERA et al fails on all three counts

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  12. Why are you quoting Wikipedia to proof your point? Is it from God?

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    1. Hi Mushin,
      No - wikipedia is not from God. It is an increasingly reliable source of FACTS, however.
      I prefer to base my beliefs on facts which I can verify.

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    2. If you say Wikipedia is a reliable source.. it goes to show how reliable your claims are..!!

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    3. If God CREATED EVERYTHING, claiming ANYTHING as NOT HIS CREATION is a self-refuting claim. Even the DEVIL is GOD'S responsibility... and read ur Qur'an THOROUGHLY... IF NOBODY BUT ALLAH, knows the TRUE MEANING of the Qur'an, neither MUHAMMAD, YOU or anybody else can claim to KNOW if the "revelation" is true lol.... NEWS FLASH: ITS JUST a BOOK, MAGIC does NOT exist in the real world, but it sure does in the SUNNAH/HADITHS..

      Delete
  13. thanks for ur valuable article i was also confused with the claims of many muslim scholars which i had also believed once many muslims believe that the body of ramses or merneptah was discovered from red sea in 1898 it was miraculously preserved under the sea the fact is that we dont even have a proof that exodus occured or israelites were enslaved in egypt

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  14. Good point, Jassar. No proof at all that anything like the exodus actually happened

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  15. I agree with you on the basis that we'll never know whether that mummy is the one that is 'claimed' to be the one that was discovered in the red sea however u have to admit the quran consists of numorous accurate facts which have astonished modernday scientists how could things which were found out well after the quran was written be mentioned in the quran already? How about you do some extensive research before you comment on my post try just simply typing in 'islam and science' into google there's a lot more to know, this whole mummy buisness is merely the biggest opportunuity for you to say islam 'falsely claims miricles' just beacuse a few scholars are sayin it and we know it can't be proved as I have said there is no way we'll ever know but if you look at the quran itself instead of focusing on what PEOPLE are saying you will find it very interesting as the factual content is 100% accurate according to our modernday understanding. I c ould give examples but I believe I have written enough and I leave the rearching to you however I will add the example of fertilisation. The steps of fertilisation for exanmple are written with such a high level of accurate description that it has amazed doctors how could someone write with such accurate detail sooo long ago before any sort of scientific reasearch had even been conducted in that field. No proof (not proof as in how your describing- physical proof as the body of the pharo I mean proof as in what it says in the quran which is exactly what scientists have found out ages after it was written) will ever be enough for the non believers to me it sounds like you just want the chance to belittle islam and you have seised your greatest opportunity here where there are holes for you to further pick on. If you want to prove me wrong that you are not just writting to belittle islam and you actually want to understand and hear us out then please do actually do the research.

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    1. "u have to admit the quran consists of numorous accurate facts which have astonished modernday scientists"
      I don't have to admit any such thing.
      There is not a single scientific fact in the Qur'an that was not known before.

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  16. See u didn't do the research did you otherwise you would have more to say back to me if you had found something to pick on! So you're telling me that before the quran was written people had knowledge on things such as the universe being ever expanding? errr people use to think the world was FLAT! No its actually a fairly recent discovery which is already mentioned in the quran seriously people like you just want others to think of islam is a joke!Go and do some research before you try and say things like
    We 'claim things that patently aren't true'!

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  17. HI Anon,
    Yes, I have done the research - plenty of it. Please read the hundreds of posts in my blog. Just enter a search item in the search bar and you'll probably find an article I've written on the subject.
    With regard to the ever-expanding universe, please show me the ayat that predicts that in clear, unambiguous terms (not a translation that has been re-thought in the light of present knowledge)

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  18. Have you read the quran and understood the meaning of everything written? What you said in your last post was 'there is not a single scientific fact in the quran that was not known before' do you even realise how long ago it was written? You're telling me that in those times that people had the knowledge to have already know things that we are only recently finding/ have found out. Here is what you've asked for: (And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are its expander) (Adh-Dhāriyāt: 47). I reckon I'm waisting my time with you any way, you're not willing to listen let alone accept anything and that's fine I'm not forcing or wanting for you to say'you are correct the quran is truley full of miricles' I just want you to open you eyes and understand that there are two sides to everything. Also I was just wondering do you believe in God? (No this is not me making an attempt to convet you before you ask LOL)

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  19. http://quran.com/51/47-60

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    1. Oh, you mean this ayat:
      "With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace"

      which the miracle seekers have decided means a reference to the expanding universe.

      Funny how nobody BEFORE the discovery that the universe was expanding had translated it like that, isn't it?

      Does this not make you a little bit suspicious that you are being manipulated?

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  20. Can you read arabic? ofcourse any translation is not the same as reading in the original language, I take it you can't read arabic therefore you yourself will be reading translations.So what do you interpret from what you've stated above? What your saying is that we've changed the translation as if we've suddenly changed our minds on what it means, no it is merely a simpler way of explaining, otherwise what construction is god on about? What vastness of pace? I think God didn't realise that he'd have to dictate every little thing to humans wouldn't it be easier if he did >_< . Also you didn't answer my question do you even believe in God?

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    1. Classic retardation, God is so dumb, he couldnt make it possible for his messsge to be "PROPERLY" preserved, IN EVERY LANGUAGE. intelligent people call that a cultural PROBLEM which occurs naturally when tryin to make excuses for theological deficiencies...

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  21. Ah - the old "you'll never understand because you don't read Arabic defence". So Islam is (literally!) a closed book to the vast majority of the world's population who don't understand classical arabic,is it? Doesn't that sort of contradict the idea of it being a universal message?
    Your translation is a "simpler way of explaining"? Really? It's not simpler. It's DIFFERENT. One says God created the vastness of space, the other that God created an expanding universe.
    No. I don't believe in your God or anyone else's. I am an atheist.
    Which means your (merciful) God is going to roast me for an eternity. Along with my wife and children. What a delightful creation to worship.

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  22. I did not say you'll never understand because you don't read arabic I was just simply trying to explain the fact that obviously when you translate something the real meaning gets changed a bit also there are many 'fake' scholars so translations should only be taken from approved scholars.'firmament' means heavens/sky/space God says it is he who has made them and it his he who has created the vastness - vastness of what? - of which they are expanding at. Also everyother religion 'claims' miracles christianity, sikhism, hinduism etc why is it that you only choose Islam to complain about I mean your an atheist surely you should be laughing at the whole concept of god all together and everyone who believes in a god after all he's just a creation of someones wild imagination. Every religion believes its 'the right one' and that they're the only ones going to heaven so according to everyone elses beliefs I'm going to be roasted for eternity too. I'm a muslim and proud, your an atheist and that's great I'm not bothered by the fact that you don't believe in God as it does not affect me and the fact that I'm a muslim shouldn't affect you.

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    1. Quite right, Anon. Your being a Muslim bothers me not one jot. What DOES bother me are the attempts by modernists to claim SCIENTIFIC miracles in the Qur'an and to use these to attempt to convert gullible, vulnerable westerners. It is only since Bucaille and the Commission on Scientific Signs set up by al-Zindani that this has been happening.The miracles in Christianity are an integral part of the faith. Jesus carried them out. Muhammad, on the other hand, said his only miracle was the Qur'an - meaning its literary merit ("bring me a surah like it" etc)Hence the claims to scientific preternatural knowledge are a modern invention which belittles your faith and opens it to criticism when such claims are disproved.

      Delete
    2. Classic double-speak: a UNIVERSAL meaning CANT be spread properly unless done by NON-UNIVERSAL methods, but it can still be UNIVERSALLY spread by using NON-UNIVERSAL methods.... if ONE language has a teaching that CANT be translated, its a inferior teaching to begin with

      Delete
  23. I totaly agree with you on the basis that people are trying to convet others, why don't they focus on being a better person themselves. I am now starting to understand you point of view, maybe these are miracles and maybe they aren't we'll never know but as you said no one can just claim miracles on the basis of wanting to prove their faith.

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  24. There are so many muslims degrading their own faith it's unreal e.g. Terrorists who use God to try to justify their vile acts >_< funny thing is they actually think they're going to go to heaven.God is merciful no one knows what he'll decide he may well place 'nonbelievers' who based their life around good acts and intentions, in heaven we can't say who's going to heaven and who's going to hell and I know in the quran it says non believers will be punished for not believing but Ultimately god decides and I don't think he's going to roast the people he made and loves I think that the example of hell is just a way of reinforcing the importance of being a good person.

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    Replies
    1. I'm glad you think that - but such a diabolical threat is enough to persuade me that it can't be God.

      Delete
    2. dear Spionza,
      I've read several comments between you and others, and i understand the way you think, but one thing you should know

      1. Islam did not expand on those evidences, only the newly scholars are using the scientific events and facts to prove uninterpreted verses.... as humans and not prophets, they can be right or wrong.
      2. you clearly have something personal against Islam, denying will be a waste of my time. ( but hey, you are doing very well, in a modern and a polite way, respect for that)
      3. If you are a truth seeker, start taking the info from their real resources, the internet is like an abyss. oh one more thing, you use Wikipedia very well, but here in Denmark i was taught not to rely on it and to follow the source of the info before believing anything written in it... cause its written by many people with different ideas.
      4. if you want to translate or interpret the verses of the Quran, you should study how you should do it, its like any science, as an engineer, i cant go making assumptions about biology.. neither you nor i is a scholar, and interpreting is not for ANYONE

      and lastly, no matter what you're trying to accomplish, Islam will always be the fastest spreading religion no matter what you do, and the internet makes nerds believe they're gods, wake up, look around you and think.
      P.S: i also hate miracle seekers...

      Delete
  25. Hell is a reality my friends..but only for those who are purely evil and rotten to the core...@Anonymous; we musn't refute the notion of Hell because it would contradict our belief in what has been revealed (The Glorious Quran)... God is the Most Merciful and He will look for any excuse to forgive, but for those who are pure evil and disbeleive there will be no helpers or forgiveness after God...

    "Have those who disbeleived not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing" (The Glorious Quran 21:30)

    @spinoza... don't let your arrogance blind you, dig deep and reflect, part of having faith is believing in the unseen, but by your logic you only beleive in that which you see and comprehend, we are human and not all-knowing, so would something not exist for the one who can not comprehend it and exist for the one who can, belief in God comes from the heart and soul, and not from science or 'facts'. Everyone sane person, regardless of ability can fathom and comprehend the Signs of the God without having extensive knowledge or proofs, it is just simply a question of thinking for yourself (without any prejudice or arrogance). My advice to you is reflect on the Quran with a clear heart and mind, God, or me or any other Muslim has nothing to gain if u choose to beleive and embrace the truth, only YOU gain and only YOU benefit...

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  26. Thank you Sakib, for such a heart-felt plea. You assume I haven't spent a great deal of time reading and reflecting. Isn't that in its turn arrogant?
    I have read and thought about the message contained in the Qur'an. I have concluded that all the evidence points to it being man-made and an obvious product of its time and location.
    For my trouble in using my supposed God-given intellect and curiosity, your Holy book tells me that I shall have the most despicable torture inflicted on me for eternity because I refuse to believe in a sadistic deity.
    Your suggestion that Muslims have nothing to gain if I embrace Islam is curious, since one of the (many) reasons I reject your religion is the giant ponzi scheme set up by Allah whereby whoever converts me gets the benefit of my good deeds in Heaven.

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  27. وَالسَّمَاء بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ
    Quran 51:47

    Even a cursory use of on-line translators will inform you that the last word LA MO SA OON means "Dilator or Stretcher"

    http://webtranslation.paralink.com/Arabic-English-Translation/
    or
    http://translation.babylon.com/arabic/to-english/#

    so the "And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are its expander" 51:47 is indeed the correct translation.

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  28. Thank you for your comment, Farrukh.
    If LA MO SA OON means "dilator or stretcher" why is it that none of the translations, even those that try to maintain this verse tells us the universe is expanding, translates it as such?
    Why did Allah find it so difficult to make this important, not to say vital, piece of information clear to us?

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  29. First of all, please be clear and accept that ‘LAMOSAOON’ in Arabic means the ‘Dilator / Stretcher’. There are no ifs and buts. It is understood as such in Arabic, the language of the Quran. So all Arabs and all those who know Arabic, have no confusion. Even a urdu speaker, like me can make out that the verse is talking about the heavens. So the Quran has no confusion or difficulty in explaining itself. It is not a book of science, but guidance. Yet since it is meant to guide humanity till the Last Day, as a miracle, Allah has mentioned some scientific facts in it (not known at the time of revelation) so that as humanity progresses in various fields of science, people of later generations may discover, reflect and hopefully believe in the guidance it contains.

    Scholars will translate the quran according to their own understanding of the language. And Arabic is one of the hardest languages to translate. Undoubtedly some bias will creep in and some nuances will be misrepresented. That’s why it is a translation. A means to understand quickly. For this reason, as a Muslim we offer all our recitations in Arabic. Although most non-arabs don’t know the meaning. We are encouraged to learn Arabic to know first hand what Allah wishes to convey.
    By the way which translation you are reading? 50% of the translations readily available on-line do convey the meaning of the verse 51:47 correctly :
    Sahih International: And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.
    Muhammad Sarwar: We have made the heavens with Our own hands and We expanded it.
    Mohsin Khan: With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.
    Arberry: And heaven -- We built it with might, and We extend it wide.
    Pickthall: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
    Yusuf Ali: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
    Shakir: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.


    This is what the eminent scholar Dr Gary Miller has to say about verse 51:47 :
    “The Expanding Heavens. Let me first show more of our examination of the Qur'an, and then an examination of some words of prophets to find this point of convergence. In chapter fifty-one, verse forty seven, it is mentioned that the heavens are expanding. As I mentioned earlier, this is in connection with the 'Big Bang' origin of the universe, as it is usually called, and it was in 1973 that the Nobel Prize was awarded to three men who were confirming that, after all, the universe is expanding.
    The comments of Muslims over the centuries on this verse which speaks of the heavens doing exactly that are very interesting. The wisest among them had stated that the words are very clear, that the heavens are expanding, but they could not imagine how that could be so. But they were content to leave the words as they were, to say: "Allah knows best"

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    Replies
    1. Hi Farrukh,
      I'm not sure that quoting Abdul-Ahad Omar (formerly known as Gary Miller)is much use to your argument. You can hardly claim a convert to Islam who has written a book called "The Amazing Qur'an" and spends his time lecturing on Islam as an impartial, objective witness. Especially one whose PHD was in mathematics - nothing to do with either Islam or cosmology...
      With regards to your other claim about the translation...I fed لَمُوسِعُونَ into both translators you suggested. One of them recognised it as a noun and translated it as "stretcher". The other told me it meant "for expansion".
      It seems perfectly clear to me this ayat is a reworking of the idea in the Bible: Isaiah, chapter 42: 5:

      ‘This is what God the Lord says—he who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it, who gives breath to its people, and life two those who walk in it’

      Anyway - thanks for your comments as it's given me an idea for my next post.

      Best wishes,
      Spinoza

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    2. of all the translations available only Asad suggests the expansion is still going on!
      Asad (a Jewish convert) was well known as someone who looked for scientific evidence in his translations.
      I therefore strongly dispute your 50% figure.

      Delete
  30. Brilliant. I am a muslim and I couldn't be more proud of the effort you've put in here. I believe its time to redress Islam driven ideologies and cultivate a more sensible and reasonable attitude towards spiritualism. I started reading Quran in English (the one approved by Harmain Shariefain) and have since been disillusioned with the glaring errors and fallacies in my holy book. It took me 27 years to figure out that "There is no God but somehow there is always a messenger". I now feel it shows poorly on my intellect that I believed in such irrational beliefs all this while, but better late than never. It's a tad bit disappointing to realise that there won't be an afterlife, and that one life is all we really get! Truly mortal! But it would surely be nice to live it having known the truth and not dying with false hopes of the Edens and Firdauses.

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  31. Hi Ayhan,
    Thanks for your comments.
    "It's a tad bit disappointing to realise that there won't be an afterlife" - yes but what a prosaic, unimaginative after-life it was: endlessly shagging giant hairless virgins. How awful to live forever in a silly adolescent's fantasy.

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    Replies
    1. If there was in reality no God and no Day of Judgement, then the believers and non-believers both will be in the same condition after death. Both will perish for ever and nobody will suffer for his belief or disbelief.
      On the other hand, if their Is Allah and a Day of Judgement, as all true Muslims believe, then after death the believers will be saved and will be blessed, while the atheists and non-believers will have to suffer.
      Therefore, it is the dictate of wisdom to have Faith and Belief in Allah and Day of Judgement, to save oneself from the possibility of disgrace and eternal punishment. It makes common sense.

      Delete
    2. If there was in reality no God and no Day of Judgement, then the believers and non-believers both will be in the same condition after death. Both will perish for ever and nobody will suffer for his belief or disbelief.
      On the other hand, if their Is Allah and a Day of Judgement, as all true Muslims believe, then after death the believers will be saved and will be blessed, while the atheists and non-believers will have to suffer.
      Therefore, it is the dictate of wisdom to have Faith and Belief in Allah and Day of Judgement, to save oneself from the possibility of disgrace and eternal punishment. It makes common sense.

      Delete
    3. @ Farrukh
      Ah - old Pascal's wager! If your faith is predicated upon such a shallow wager then surely your God, if he's worthy of the name, would see right through it.
      And you suggest that the wager is a no lose bet and thus wise and logical. You ignore the possibility that i. living one's life in fear of eternal damnation might not be good for your psyche
      ii. having to indulge in cognitive dissonance to such an extent that you have to disbelieve the evidence of evolution might be harmful to your development as an intellectually curious human being
      iii. that your belief in a deity who threatens his creation with the most disgusting torture if they fail to believe in him might ... just might backfire when you discover he's not all he said he was.
      Just a thought...

      Delete
  32. coming back to the point.
    I think that is clear to you that the Quran talks about the expanding universe.
    So a scientific fact stated 1400 years ago in the Quran.

    From where it came is another matter.

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    Replies
    1. @ Farrukh
      I'm going to answer your point in the comments section of my latest post which is a more appropriate place given the post is on this topic, and will also allow others to read your interesting views.
      Best wishes,
      Spinoza

      Delete
  33. All religions are based on lies, power, control and sun worship. Islam was the first and the others are all borne of it. They are overpopulating and killing the world through the ridiculous dogma and rubbish they teach, such as that there is a heaven and hell, etc. These are the engine driving them and the wind in their sails. Ha, one day they might wake up to how they are being duped.

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    Replies
    1. Hi Norma - thanks for your comment. I couldn't agree more.

      Delete
    2. Hey Spinoza, so you do understand that you are not only misleading yourself but all the other people who are visiting this page?

      [Quran 14:21] When they all stand before God, the followers will say to the leaders, "We used to follow you. Can you spare us even a little bit of God's retribution?" They will say, "Had God guided us, we would have guided you. Now it is too late, whether we grieve or resort to patience, there is no exit for us."

      [Quran 38:61] The followers will say, "Our Lord, these are the ones who led us into this; double the retribution of hellfire for them."

      Good luck with that!

      Delete
  34. Hi Spinoza, I love your calm and logical responses here, so I've signed up! I'm currently in a discussion with someone (Muslim) over proof for the existence of God and he's building up to Buccaille's tale of the Pharoah, so this blog is particularly interesting.

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    Replies
    1. Hi Big Chris,
      Good to have you on board - the more the merrier!
      Do let me know how your discussion goes.

      Delete
    2. Well it turned out his knowledge was very poor so he abandoned that track and soon after refused to discuss any further with an atheist. Hey ho.

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    3. ah...well at least my convert friend is a bright bloke with plenty of knowledge so we have some good old debates. Having said that, he's gone a bit quiet recently...

      Delete
  35. This is a good post. 1)When you talk about the possible negative consequences that can occur if one was to believe in eternal damnation, have you scientific proof of that? Not something indirect, but an actual study regarding Muslim participants and how believing in eternal damnation may affect their psyche? 2)Have you proof that this person is having doubts, or maybe it's that he doesn't care and believe in evolution based on Darwin's theories. 3) A person with faith doesn't dwell in such matters. Only people who have serious doubts might or one who doesn't believe in any deity at all. The afterlife is an intensity of the pains as well as peace of this world. The comforts of this world is amplified in the next and the pain in this world is also amplified in the next. It seems like people who constantly say religions are wrong because it is believed that such and such torment will occur and laugh at the bounties those people may receive by doing good according to their faith are themselves, in fear and doubt. Why? In my personal opinion, they don't wish to accept that such things can occur, that such pain or beauty exists, to me there the ones that feel fear and need constant security by other like-minded people to tell them such things won't happen to them. Lastly, why could the creator not threaten his creation? Did he not give his creation life, hands, feet, etc.? The body is created so harmoniously that theory of evolution can't fully explain the way we are. Theory of evolution seems to be an overstatement rather than something sound enough to explain such complex life.
    Just a thought...


    @ Farrukh
    Ah - old Pascal's wager! If your faith is predicated upon such a shallow wager then surely your God, if he's worthy of the name, would see right through it.
    And you suggest that the wager is a no lose bet and thus wise and logical. You ignore the possibility that i. living one's life in fear of eternal damnation might not be good for your psyche
    ii. having to indulge in cognitive dissonance to such an extent that you have to disbelieve the evidence of evolution might be harmful to your development as an intellectually curious human being
    iii. that your belief in a deity who threatens his creation with the most disgusting torture if they fail to believe in him might ... just might backfire when you discover he's not all he said he was.
    Just a thought...

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  36. read the following link
    http://www.ezsoftech.com/giknowledge/firaun.mummy.asp

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  37. well if u dont believe in ALLAH(GOD) how do u think everythin around u this whole universe was created think brooooo

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  38. Hi Sarmad,
    Just visited the site you suggest.
    the 3rd line reads as follows:
    "When Francisco Mitra became the president of France in 1981"
    Who is Francisco Mitra??? Do you suppose the author means Francois Mitterand?
    The rest is equally unimpressive.

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  39. Great read! I do have a question though, what is your opinion on the Quran claiming that a Pharaoh had died and it's body was preserved to show mankind being written so many years before it was discovered?

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  40. What is your oppinion about the amazing embriology of Quran?

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    1. please see my posts on that topic (just put embryology into the search bar)
      You'll see that I'm afraid I don't think it's amazing at all, Anon

      Delete
  41. Here is a scientic fact for u. in the glorious quran it says that one of the major signs of judgement day is that 2 nights will join & the sun will rise from the west instead of rising from the east. wut i mean by 2 nights joining before the sun rises from the west is that after a full night has passed and ppl wake up for breakfast they will see that the sun hasnt risen and that it is still dark out as if it was night time. after this time passes the next time humanity will see the sun is when it rises from the west. here comes the science part. u can check for yourself online if u dont believe me. scientists have proven that since the beginning of time the earth has been rotating around its axis at the speed of 4 hours per rotation around the complete axis of the earth. over time it has been slowing down because of its mass they say. and now the time it takes for the earht to completey rotate around its axis is approx. 24 hours. but what scientists say is going to happen is the the earth rotation is simular the a spring that when u keep on twisting & twisting it that it will reach a point where it will no longer twist and what will happen next. what do u think will happen next. it will rotate in the opposite direction causing the sun to rise from the opposite direction.

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  42. Well I have to congratulate you Spinoza for getting all this attention. But can you help me understand why people are even reading this absolutely nonsense article and wasting their time on it? I mean come on. Couldn't you find alittle more reliable sources to support your argument with? I thought we all knew by now that Wikipedia is not considered a "reliable source" even for the school essays. Well you would have known that if you had attended school, right?

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  43. And by the way, who do you think you are Spinoza? There are all these scientists testifying that the Quran is divine. They do not see any contradiction in Quranic verses and modern scientific discoveries (link provided below). But then you come and say, "no wait everyone's lying. Quran is not divine." And best of all you rely on wikipedia to support your arguments. And guess what you have quite some logical followers too. haha. really funny.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUUPYs0gElU

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  44. Hi! i just visited this page and gone through all the discussion/argument.
    first of all i want to clear i have truly faith in Allah and holy book Quran. I even respect a lot the other holy books also e.g the Bible. apart from all religious beliefs and faith i want to ask to 'Spin' some social and practical questions and expect practical answers. after thousand of years(from the time human being exist) how the human being became civilized? name of the first author of the book that teaches human being humanity? what fear stops people to become demon in form of human? what fear stops people to be self centered and do what ever they want? what teaches human that u r different than animals? is that only man made low and order which stopped and stopping the massive population of the world to become criminals in many terms?
    ALLAH told to mankind through MUHAMMAD (S.A.W) that he sent lac's of messengers to the world to teach the people what they don't knew.
    this is only fear of religions and God that stops the massive population of the world to be demon in form of human. isn't it? u must be knowing the situations of the time when mankind did not know about the almighty GOD who is unseen. there was almost always a person who claimed to be god himself. do u think that was good or do u want people to be atheist and make this beautiful world itself a hell. because no constitution or any man made low and order rules can stop people to be horrible creature if u just take out fear of god from people just for one day.

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  45. Ramses was bald with some red hair (which is quite rare in Egypt)remaining at the back of his head and he also had a hooked nose that has a special name in arabic. These traits are mentioned in Prophetic sayings.
    His mummy had a broken neck that archeologists attribute to mishandling during mumifmification (yes, right) and he was full of fractures all over his bodies ( guess why, we can find million reasons other than being crushed by a tsunami).
    But most importantly his hair was full of grains of sand of maritime origin (not the salt you mention) which in a french site say mummification was made not in the delta but for some unknown reason they couldn't say by the sea!

    You can check all what i'm saying from this french site (some kind of dental association) that clearly has nothing to do with Islam except for the broken neck that you'll find in Ramses's page on wikipedia.
    Check it for yourself.
    http://www.biusante.parisdescartes.fr/sfhad/vol7/article02.htm


    As for the Prophet's sayings concerning his physical appearance, i think you're smart enough to google them. If you disprove me on this point, i can give you a rational help.

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  46. Thank you, Muhammad.
    I have read the link. You fail to mention this:
    La momie mesure encore 1,72m, et ne présente aucune trace de traumatisme ante-mortem.
    "There is no sign of any injury prior to death". This seems strange for someone who apparently came to the violent end as reported in the Qur'an.
    With regards to your claim that the mummy's hair had sand of marine origin, what is actually said is the sand proves the preparation of the mummy took place near the capital in the north by the delta:
    Des grains de sable d'origine désertique et marine collés aux cheveux prouvent que la préparation de la momie avait été réalisée à proximité de la capitale du Nord, dans le Delta

    (My comment regarding salt used in the mummification process still stands)

    I'd love to discuss this further if you have any more questions.

    ReplyDelete
  47. OK some quick notes as it to expound would go beyond the bounds of a blog comment an my allotted time and effort and of course yours and the readers.
    First, you failed to mention anything about:
    * His read hair and baldness and shape of nose, all three mentioned in a Prophetic saying. By the way I'm a 42 egyptian living in egypt and the red hair egyptians i've seen can be counted on my hands.
    * The salt and sand: You're confounding sand and salt, sand is something completely different from salt, check it out if you don't believe me. I was talking about SAND of maritime origin found in the hair. You know the type that gets in your hair when you like on the beach. I can't think of any other way for this sand to get in the hair and I don't understand why the would splash sand on his hari! By the way contrary to what the original article says, there is no sand in the Delta, only in the desert and by the sea side.
    * Injuries: Now, here is a lengthy and deep subject. However in a nutshell, we have 3 types of trauma: postmortem, perimortem and antemortem. Perimortem (just around death before or after) is very difficult to know for sure. You have to know that this is not an exact science. The matter is more obscured if we're talking about a 3 thousand years old body and further obscured by the mummification process. So reason here says we're talking probabilities. That being said, let me remind you that:
    # His neck was broken and there was no mention in any of the sources about why or any evidence of it being post-mortem, which is extremely difficult to decide for the neck by the way. (This is in the article spine c6-c7)
    #"la rupture probable de la coiffe de l'épaule droite, unilatérale et peut-être post-traumatique" (the translation is rupture of the right shoulder's rotator cuff and probably post-traumatic). This probability is an excellent qualifier for Perimortem injuries by the way. (the article is contradicting itself by the way and it's the role of reason to dissect) Personally my first unconscious reflex to seeing a tsunami coming towards me is to put my hand in front of my face. And booom, my shoulder is broken and my neck (quite a scenario, right).
    # 2 leg fractures (in the article) in addition to other fractures all over the body.

    A small synchronicity: Pharoh is mentioned 67 times in the Holy Quran which is number of years of Ramses's reign.

    Now, there are much more evidence and synchronicities but not much time left for me.
    So sorry if I won't add or reply to any more queries :)

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    Replies
    1. I ought to add that I didn't confuse salt and sand. I was referring to the sand you mentioned and that was mentioned in the French report. You claim the sand found in the mummy's hair was of maritime origin and that this proves/strongly suggests that the Pharaoh was drowned. Please read the French quote from the report again:
      Des grains de sable d'origine désertique et marine collés aux cheveux prouvent que la préparation de la momie avait été réalisée à proximité de la capitale du Nord, dans le Delta.
      Translates as: "The grains of SAND of desert and marine origin stuck to the mummy's hair prove that the preparation of the mummy had taken place near the capital of the north, in the Delta"
      Further, do you really think that sand is so unusual in Egypt...?

      Delete
    2. Spinoza dear old mite .Here is the real deal.You already have a blind conviction that something can't be true.No matter what is given you will simply make another claim to prove yourself wrong.Even if i proved some set of axioms like x,y,z and show that your entire reasoning is nothing but product of a severe form of cognitive bias just to assure yourself of your imagined intellectual superiority; you will ask why these x,y,z are right even though you might have using the exact same principles all the time.

      Delete
  48. Hi Muhammad,
    I didn't forget/neglect the red hair, I thought it of minor interest as so many of the royal family were red-heads. There are many ancient paintings and references to this fact.
    With regard to the injuries/cause of death - I think it highly unlikely a 90 year-old cripple suffering from arthritis and dental infection so bad it was probably the cause of death would have led a cohort of chariots to chase the Israelites. Don't you?
    With regard to synchronicity/ numerical miracles. I'll leave it to a wise old Muslim who said all so-called number miracles tell us more about the desperation of those who believe in them than they do about the Holy Qur'an. (In any case, in my quick research I found 90 verses where Pharoah is mentioned...)

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    Replies
    1. I appreciate you for doing such a great effort to prove absence of god but I request u to just spend 1% of that time searching for presence of god inshallah u will find it, I m sure

      Delete
  49. Truth be told I did believe what Bucaille said about the mummy. Not that I no longer do since you didn't really provide much evidence as to how the Pharaoh didn't die drowned. But it is also worth mentioning that Bucaille determined that Merneptah was the Pharaoh of the exodus based on biblical sources , not Qur'anic ones , he then made the examinations one the mummy and said :

    "What may already be derived from this examination is the discovery of multiple lesions of the bones with broad lacunae, some of which may have been mortal although it is not yet possible to ascertain whether some of them occurred before or after the Pharaoh's death. He most probably died either from drowning, according to the Scriptural narrations, or from very violent shocks preceding the moment when he
    was drowned-or both at once."
    His book "The Bible , The Qur'an and Science" deals with scientific things mentioned in both books and comes to the conclusion that the Quran is in agreement with modern scientific data. And this is VERY different from saying it brings scientific precision informations that could not have been known at that time - although it does as seen in the very same book.
    There are people unfortunately who try to find a miracle in every verse. Though scientific miracles do exist , not every thing should be interpreted as a miracle.
    However , I didn't like how you said he was motivated by desire for personal gain , since this is a speculation that you can't prove. The same can be said about the people you mention as being authorities. One can say they want their shot at gaining celebrity finding fallacies in the statments of scientists and the religious scriptures. Try not to make this target the person of your adversaries.
    Salam
    -Jerbi

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  50. This is a waste of time. Why? Because if this was that much of an importance as in proving quran is legitimate or a forgery, then Allah would have given us much more details. In other words, O muslims, stop wasting your time with insignificant details. Plus,there are millions of other miracles in the holy quran. You can never understand it because you can't see it with your "heart".

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  51. just asking, if u don't believe in god, then how does this world exist?

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    1. just asking, if you believe god made the world...then who made god?

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    2. HI Spinoza,
      I would start with the quranic verse you mentioned:
      "This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!"[Qur'ân 10:90-92]

      My question to you: Does this verse mention the details of how the preservation of the body would take place. It simply says that " This day shall We save thee in the body". Now if anyone says including a muslim that the body was preserved inside water and was revealed to the world in recent times would be regarded as ones thought. It is quite possible that after the big incident happened his body might have recovered outside with bones broken and then mummified so that people could see and tell to themselves he cannot be God.
      Now coming to the point: Do we know if he is that pharoh. We even cannot say if he is not that one. So the next part of the verse " but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" explains very well. If you still want to be sure if he is that pharoh or not you can keep your search. It does not harm God.
      So Quran is not conflicting even with your wikipedia source. Verse is very simple. Pharoh is there. Yes preserved for every one to see.

      In some parts of the blog you were trying to tell God what he should do in what manner. Please stop telling God what to do and what not to do. Now try to spend some time with the assumption that He is watching us.

      Now your question who made God ? To know this first you need to agree on the fact that there is God. Without this you cannot proceed further rationally.

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  52. Just asking - if you believe God has someone/something made Him, then that shows that God is created. Since God is created, it shows that God has a beginning which implies that God didn't exist before He was created. Thus, It's obviously that your question which derived from your understanding of the concept of God was referring to something that has properties of the Created. Now, if God could be created then He becomes the Created, not the Creator. So my question is can the Creator has a property of the Created? If you say No, then your question is wrong; if you say Yes, then you have a problem of understanding the differences between the Creator and the Created.

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  53. Now i get it u spionz or wutever itz u r hell bent against islam n trying to prove islam n quran wrong but wht about thousands of mathematical n scientific errors in bible i wonder weather have u ever wrote a blog on that no why because u r anti islamic so no more discussion.

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  54. Spinoza has lost the plot

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  55. The author seems upset personally to Mr.Y. Estes who made thousands of Christian converted to Islam. If Mr. Estes mentioned any wrong quotation or data about Pharaoh, it is natural; everybody can be wrong. Anyway, the discovery of Merneptah mummy and the subsequent link to the Qoran does not reduce the ultimate truth of the Qoran. Any time the truth comes the people always dispute it, it happened since Adam, Abraham, Moses, Solomon, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad and even until today. Islam is simple: you may believe or disbelieve [Qoran 18:29]. For more info, please log on: http://www.cpsglobal.org/content/mummy-merneptah
    [ARB is the author of 'Jihad' and 'JFK's Nuclear War']

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  56. lets see some blogger who promotes atheism or a reputable french doctor who examined the mummy and drew his conclusion with science

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  57. christian and jewish scientists have confirmed the idenity of this mummy as the pharoah of moses time

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  58. Now, has anyone proved Moses or Exodus?

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