Monday, November 12, 2012

Special relativity and speed of light miracle in Qur'an...debunked!


the speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s

A reader of Rational Islam? has asked me to look at a surprisingly common miracle claim: that the speed of light is foretold in the Qur'an. "Varma", whose blog has the admirably succinct title, Debunking Bucailleismand which I thoroughly recommend, referred me to this Islamic miracle seeker site, Miracles in the Qur'an and to this miracle claim in particular.
Here's the introduction:
We know from Einstein that my clock and your clock will not run at the same rate. Time (or rate of our clocks) depends on acceleration and/or gravity. If my clock accelerates and/or is in a strong gravitational field then it will run slower than your clock. So time is relative. Quran 22.47 compares time of Earth with time at Paradise/Hell (1 day vs 1000 years); while Quran 70.4 compares time on Earth with time in wormholes (1 day vs 50,000 years).
And here's 70:4:
The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day, the measure of which is fifty thousand years.
Now, call me an old nit-picker if you wish, but I don't spot any mention of worm-holes here. But perhaps I'm just being too literal ... expecting to read the phrase worm-hole when a claim is made that "the Qur'an compares time on earth with time in worm-holes".  Anyhow, let's see how the miracle claim continues. (Don't worry - it's not as bad as it looks!)

Here angels will experience 1 day while humans will measure it as 50,000 years (time vs. time and not time vs. distance as the other lunar verse). This can happen if:1) Angels accelerate to relativistic speeds.2) Angels are in a strong gravitational field.1) Outside gravitational fields: This agrees with Einstein’s theory of special relativity, which says that a faster moving object appears to experience slower time. Moslems use Einstein’s theory of special relativity with the following verse in the Quran to check whether those angels really accelerate up to the speed of light or not. Given this time difference (time dilation) we can calculate the speed at which that object traveled. We can verify if those angels really accelerate up to the speed of light, as claimed by Moslems, or not. Outside gravitational fields this speed turned out to be 99.99999999999981% of the speed of light:∆t= ∆t0/(1-v^2/c^2)^1/2(Where ∆to is the time measured for a mover by a mover; ∆t is the time measured for a mover by a stationary frame; v is the velocity of the mover relative to the stationary observer):∆to is the time experienced by angels (1 day).∆t is the time as measured by humans (50,000 lunar years x12 lunar months/lunar year x 27.321661 days/lunar month).v is the velocity of angels in this case (which we intend to calculate and then compare to the known speed of light).c is the nominal speed of light 299792.458 km/s.From the above equation we can solve for the unknown velocity:v =c (1-∆t0 ^2/∆t^2)^1/2   This time dilation (time difference) shows that angels indeed accelerate to relativistic speeds; outside gravitational fields this is the same speed calculated from the previous lunar verse also outside gravitational fields.We cannot calculate our local speed of light from this time dilation however we can calculate at what percentage of the speed of light those angels are traveling relative to an observer on Earth. By this we can compare a time dilation (50,000 years vs. one day) with a speed (12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day). We can do this by translating both of them to a common speed in km/sec. Outside gravitational fields 50,000 years vs. one day shows angels traveling at 12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day; it is the same speed in km/sec.
Oh boy! Where do we start? This all looks a bit daunting doesn't it? Isn't easier just to accept what we're being told and BELIEVE? That's exactly what the miracle seekers expect you to do...

I'll try to keep this simple.

The equation states that the speed of angels is equal to the speed of light divided by 1 minus the sum of: 1 divided by 16,392,000 (50,000 x 12 x 27.32) squared. 
Let's do the math (as the Americans say):
One divided by a very large number is a very small number - so one divided by 16.4  million is very, very small number indeed.
If we then square a number smaller than 1 we get an even smaller number. 
If we take an exceptionally small number away from 1 we will always get very, very, very nearly 1.

In other words, the very large number we start with (which the miracle seeker in this case has taken from a random verse in the Qur'an) can be just about anything over 100 and you will arrive at the desired answer (depending on how close to 1 you want to get).

If you don't believe me, let's put a totally different set of numbers into the equation and see if we come up with... the speed of light!
Here's a verse from the Holy Book of Spinoza which describes how long a day is for my magic hamster:
His Magic Hamster ascended to him in a day - the measure of which 37 years
37 x 365 = 13, 505. 
1 divided by 13, 505 =  0.000007405. 
Now let's square that ...which equals 0.000000000007505. 
Now lets take that away from 1. Wow - it's very nearly 1 (0.9999999999245)! 
Now if we times the speed of light by 0.9999999999245 we get.... 
299 792 547. 977 m/s!

So I am now claiming my magic hamster miraculously travels at very nearly the speed of light and therefore you must worship me!

Either the author of this miracle claim knows no maths whatsoever, or he (and I'd bet my house it's a he) is a  lying charlatan who knows full well what he's doing  - which is trying to mislead gullible, vulnerable people into believing Islam is rational and scientific. 

What a despicable b*stard.

PS If you're a Muslim and still believe the speed of light is contained in the Qur'an do please get in touch. 
Or failing that, you could try thinking for yourself.


98 comments:

  1. The Qur'an is full of science facts.
    You may disprove one but you can't disprove them all!
    I can list many , many miracles in Qur'an which prove Islam!
    Why are you doing this??

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    1. Bismillah walhamdulillah.(In the name of Allah n all good praise n thanks be to Him...)I, too, study physics as an amateur and n thts how I stumbled upon this site. Even tho I did not really get the story here ( maybe because of the late hour!...) but it's amusing to see how you n other ppl trying to refute the truth of Islam almost always end up using foul language while I have never ever seen any such bad behaviour on the part of a serious caller to Islam. Instead, they are mostly calm, smiling n easy going.Is the truth in their hearts showing in their attitude? Is the devil making your head hot? Am I wrong or deluded?... I mean can you pls explain this to me in light of Maxwell's famous equations!?!

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    2. Hi UmmAbdillah,
      I am sorry that you took offence at what you thought was my foul language (even if I did try to spare your blushes by asterisking the a in b*stard) . However, your suggestion that those who follow Islam are always smiling and easy-going needs to be rebutted. I have lost count of the number of times I have been insulted, threatened and promised an eternity of torture in Hell with gleeful relish by Muslim readers. I'm sure you are indeed calm and smiling but to claim that your fellow religionists are equally laid-back is untenable.

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    3. It's amazing that none of these "miracles" in the Qur'an are specifically mentioned, but only exist as ridiculously ambiguous passages that get misinterpreted only AFTER SCIENCE discovers them. There are absolutely no scientific miracles in the Qur'an. All nonsense, and I really don't care that your feeling got hurt. Your religion isn't special, and it isn't true.

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  2. Excellent debunk - even Anon (above) seems to accept you've disproved this one...

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  3. You have a conceptual error. The speed of light in the Quran is 12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day. 50,000 years vs 1 day is time dilation that comes with traveling at speed of 12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day. Actually you took it out of context. This is what they said: "We cannot calculate our local speed of light from this time dilation however we can calculate at what percentage of the speed of light those angels are traveling relative to an observer on Earth. By this we can compare a time dilation (50,000 years vs. one day) with a speed (12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day). We can do this by translating both of them to a common speed in km/sec. Outside gravitational fields 50,000 years vs. one day shows angels traveling at 12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day; it is the same speed in km/sec."

    If you didn’t get it assume that the Quran claimed half that speed that is 6000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day, would you still get half the speed of light? Of course not, it needs to be 12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day.

    Here is the physics that you couldn't debunk: http://www.speed-light.info/speed_of_light_12000.htm

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    1. Wow, you really do like putting lipstick on pigs don't you? It is beyond funny that you turn a meaningless verse, taken from the bible, into an unprofessionally written paper?

      Let me dig into this,

      You say: "angels take their orders from a Preserved Tablet somewhere in outer space, and not from God's Throne."

      Where on earth did you get that from? Please, show either anything from the quran or hadith about this tablet in outer space? Or how about some evidence from astronomy? Has hubble found this tablet? Haha I know why you did this, because if what you are saying is true, it would mean that the angels travel to Allah at the speed of light in 1 day; in which case Allah would be sitting somewhere close to our solar system. Nice try dipshit!

      Then you make all theses assertions and list these numbers with no references at all. Yeah, I am guessing this isn't peer reviewed. Who am I kidding? The abstract starts with the word "you". I am guessing you fudged all the numbers as well.

      Pathetic!

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  4. At 12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day there is time dilation of 50,000 years vs. one day. However at half that speed, 6000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day, the time dilation is zero and not 25000 years vs one day as you implied. So your claim is false.

    And again the speed of light in the Quran is 12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day, and not 50,000 years vs. one day as you claimed.

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    1. Thanks for your comments, wormhole.
      My point was mathematical. And given the miracle claim was based upon a mathematical equation I think it reasonable to take that as one's starting point to disprove it. One needs go no further if the maths doesn't hold up.
      If one applies their equation to ANY number over about 100 then the outcome will ALWAYS be a number VERY close to one. If one divides ANY figure (like the speed of light) by VERY nearly one then the outcome will be VERY close to the original number.
      The whole claim is a fallacy.
      I shall look at the other claim you refer me to and get back to you on that one

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  5. @Spinoza,
    Thank you! I couldn't have done better. I'm going to link this post to my blog. As always, you're an inspiration for me.

    @wormhole199,
    "The speed of light in the Quran is 12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day..."
    The Qur'an does not talk about the speed of light at all! It merely speaks of the 'affairs' traveling to Allah in a day which is 1000 years of Arab reckoning. It does not talk about how much the moon travels in 1000 years, which is how they managed to get the speed of light in the first place. It is comparing time with time. If the verse in question said anything along the lines of "it ascends to Him in a Day which is equal to the distance the moon travels in 1000 years of your reckoning" or something like that, then I would agree with you. Anyway, the verse is essentially the same as Psalm 90:4--

    "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night."

    And anyway in the Qur'anic verse 70:4, there is NO mention of wormholes, it is merely something that is read into the text.

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    1. The speed of light in the Quran is 12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day, and not 50,000 years vs. one day as Spinoza claimed. They said "We cannot calculate our local speed of light from this time dilation..." however according to Spinoza they do calculate the speed of light from time dilation. Go figure…

      Also time dilation only occurs at relativistic speeds, that is, at 12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day; and not at any other speed as Spinoza claims. But the Quran got it right, at 12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day. And why should an illiterate man who lived 1400 years ago know at what speed time dilation occurs? How did he know about time dilation in the first place?

      You said that the verse doesn't talk about speed; well the verse in Arabic describes the motion of angels. It is the angels who execute God's orders:

      [Quran 79.5] Execute orders (Mudaberat Amran in Arabic)

      "Mudaberat" in Arabic means execute and "Amr" means order. These exact two words are also used in describing the rate at which God's orders are executed:

      [Quran 32.5] (Allah) Rules the cosmic affair (Yudaber Al-Amr in Arabic) from the heavens to the Earth. Then this affair travels to Him a distance in one day, at a measure of one thousand years of what you count.

      Both these verses use the same words and both refer to angels. "Araj" means a man with a lame leg; "Yaruj" means a man stepping. This verse particularly says "Yaruj" describing angels taking steps. The measure of these steps is called distance. The distance traveled by angels in 1000 lunar years is 12000 lunar orbits. Speed = distance/time. This speed turned out to be the speed of light.

      And as you can see, the verse in Arabic is not related to the Bible as you claim.

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    2. @wormhole199,
      Spinoza isn't claiming anything. Both he and I have enough grey matter not to surrender our minds to some religious text. He merely says that you can plug in any number above 100 instead of 50000 in the equation shown in his post, and you get a number very close to the speed of light. It matters not if you put 1000, 50000 or 37 years in Spinoza's Holy Book (Write one, and I'll make you my prophet, Spinoza!).

      Where is the Qur'anic verse talking about the distance traveled by the moon? It does not! I feel it is talking about time, since it compares a day with 1000 years. The verse as translated by most translators reads as 'it ascends/goes up to him in a day which is the measure of 1000 years of your reckoning. Tell me if the verse is stressing on the distance traveled by the affairs/angels (it's a different issue whether angels exist or not!) or the time they take to travel. Even if it means distance, show me where the verse is speaking of the distance traveled by the moon. It simply does not.

      Now we sometimes speak of distance in terms of hours, as in "my town is 3 days' journey from here by bus", but that depends on how fast the bus is traveling, not how much distance the moon travels in 3 days!

      The verse itself doesn't have the word 'distance', since most translate 'yaruju' as 'ascends'. It is speaking of time compared with time. Even if we read it like you, "it travels to Him a distance in a Day which is equal to a 1000 years of your reckoning", it sounds awkward, since scientifically you can't compare distance with time, which are two different quantities. ow do you say the verse is speaking of the moon's orbit/ I can say it's talking about the distance a 7th-century Arab on his camel can travel in 1000 years! BTW, no one measured the moon's orbit, and calculated how much it travelled in 1000 years then.

      Again, a straightforward exegesis of the verse will show that it is speaking of time vs. time, and not distance. The stress is on 'day'.

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    3. In the end what matters is what Muslims believe, not what you think they should believe.

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    4. No - what matters, surely, is that people should be able to access the truth (however unpalatable it may be)

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    5. Actually it doesn't what crap anyone wants to believe. The only thing that matters is that you are objectively able to show the assertions you make are true - Given that the verse in the quran does not mention anything about distance or lunar orbits or frames of reference and all the other claims you make; the only matter that is evident is the fact that you are a dishonest little thing!

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    6. I was too gentle before. Let me put it like this:
      What matters is what the Qur'an says, not what wormhole wants it to say.

      Delete
  6. Exactly! Blessed be God, now we agree! You are right, it all comes down to belief or faith, and as Mark Twain is purported to have said "Faith is believing what you know ain't so". Muslims, Christians and Hindus can believe that the Qur'an, the Bible or the Vedas are the words of God, I have only goodwill towards all of them. But I don't want any of them coming and telling me their ancient books are filled with 'scientific miracles'! Seriously, have you considered what an oxymoron this term is? :)

    You can interpret your sacred text any way you want, but so can we. And there's no way either of us can say that mine or your interpretation is the only correct one.

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  7. This claim has been reviewed by a Mathematician;

    http://www.mat.univie.ac.at/~neum/sciandf/eng/c_in_quran.txt
    http://www.infidels.org/kiosk/article168.html

    "This bogus import[the cosine] was noted by Dr. Neumaier, who aptly called it "pure nonsense." He was also clever enough to catch the fact that if we have to account for that (for whatever reason), then we are also obligated to account for the sun-earth-moon system's revolution around the galactic center (and, I might add, the orbital motion of the milky way within the local cluster), but Dr. Hassab-Elnaby didn't think of this. Ooops!"

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    1. Dr. Neumair (the mathematician) found 11% difference in a non-inertial frame. But 299792.458 km/sec is the speed of light in LOCAL INERTIAL FRAMES. Einstein’s 2nd postulate of Special Relativity says: "The velocity c of light in vacuum is the same in all INERTIAL frames of reference in all directions and depend neither on the velocity of the source nor on the velocity of the observer". So 299792.458 km/sec is the speed of light in all INERTIAL frames, not in all frames as Neumair claimed.

      The clown in the second link REFUSED to define his frame of reference all together.

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    2. with the greatest respect, wormhole - you're talking nonsense (and I'm being polite here!). we are discussing a specific miracle claim here based upon a clear mathematical equation.
      Spinoza has shown that the equation as used by the miracle seeker doesn't prove anything because any input between 100 and 1 billion and beyond will have the same answer ie almost exactly the speed of light.

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    3. Einstein’s 2nd postulate of Special Relativity requires the frame to be inertial (travel in a straight line). But Neumair (the mathematician) chose a geocentric frame orbiting the sun, that is, it DOES NOT travel in a straight line (non-inertial frame). Of course Earth doesn't travel in a straight line because of sun's gravity. However this was Neumair's justification for violating the 2nd postulate of special relativity:

      "This is pure nonsense. To the accuracy c is determined by the claimed calculation, the gravitational field of the sun doesn't affect the speed of light in free space; it only causes a tiny deflection very close to the sun… and the references in the text to relativity could be dropped without affecting the logical chain of arguments. But that relativity is mentioned gives the text of course a much more scientific feel, an important decoy if one wants to lure our modern, science-credulous folks into accepting something they would otherwise be suspicious of."

      So Neumair intentionally violated the second postulate of special relativity, and insisted that the speed of light is the same in ALL frames, inertial or not.

      If you are a physicist see the effect of gravity on frames of reference: http://www.speed-light.info/speed_of_light_12000.htm#time

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    4. wormhole - I don't need to be a physicist to do basic math. you can talk about the 2nd postulate and non-inertial frames as long as you like but the equation will still spew out the same answer: any input over 100 gives you as-near-as-damn-it the speed of light.
      Do you disagree with the math?

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    5. Moslems never claimed that they calculated the speed of light from 50,000 years vs 1 day; this is your invention. Moslems are saying that this time dilation occurs at 12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day, that is, this is not a contradiction in the Quran as skeptics claim.

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    6. @wormhole
      No - it's not my invention. It's in the claim: "Here angels will experience 1 day while humans will measure it as 50,000 years (time vs. time and not time vs. distance as the other lunar verse). This can happen if:1) Angels accelerate to relativistic speeds."
      The miracle seeker then proceeds to put that number of days into the equation.
      Or are you claiming that I've invented this particular miracle claim??

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    7. They never said that they calculated the speed of light from this time dilation. They said: "We cannot calculate our local speed of light from this time dilation however we can calculate at what percentage of the speed of light those angels are traveling relative to an observer on Earth". They showed that this time dilation occurs at 99.9999...c, that is, at 12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day.

      So the claim that Moslems calculate the speed of light from time dilation is your own invention.

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    8. @wormhole99 Please dumbdumb, save your parroting for those gullible muslims or lying apologists. I remember you from therationalizer's video were you were thoroughly spanked by "silveren77" and "integralmath"; it was clear right there how dishonest you were when you ignored the questions they asked and all you would do is repeat your uneducated assertions over and over again!

      If people want to know what I am talking about, read the comments under this video (specifically look for "silveren77" and "integralmath"'s comments)

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njPLyu3ci48

      As silveren77 points out, one doesn't need the calculations to be in the same frame of refence BECAUSE the problem is talking about DISTANCE... 10 km will always be 10 km in all frames of reference. You could never address this and it became quite clear how dishonest or deluded you were. This again validates Dr. Neumair's (the mathematician) review.

      Keep trying you lying sheep!

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    9. @dfhdevilfromheaven Yes you are right, those two at YouTube REFUSED to define their frame of reference and claimed that the speed of light is the same in ALL frames, inertial or not.

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    10. Haha, there you go again. Parroting your idiotic assertions over and over again while blocking the fact that you have been thoroughly spanked and have no idea to refute it!

      Again, If people want to know what I am talking about, read the comments under this video (specifically look for "silveren77" and "integralmath"'s comments)

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njPLyu3ci48

      Keep trying you lying sheep!

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    11. Einstein’s 2nd postulate of Special Relativity says: "The velocity c of light in vacuum is the same in all INERTIAL frames of reference in all directions and depend neither on the velocity of the source nor on the velocity of the observer". So 299792.458 km/sec is the speed of light in all INERTIAL frames, not in all frames, inertial or not, as your ignorant friends claim.

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    12. Neumair is a devote Christian apologist:

      http://www.mat.univie.ac.at/~neum/faith.html

      Christian apologists are trying to prove their Bible correct, like Earth created before sun, and all the other known crap... But in particular they need the speed of light to decay (slow down over time). The Christian Bible says that the universe was created six thousand years ago. Science says that the universe was created 13.7 billion years ago. We can actually observe galaxies 13 billion light years away; that is, light already traveled 13 billion years before it reached us. This alone proves their Bible wrong. To fix this problem, they need the speed of light to decay (to slow down over time); that is, light was faster and covered that distance in much shorter time. But the Einstein's theory of relativity says that the speed of light is constant over time (no decay)... Since the theory of relativity contradicts their Bible, they need the theory of relativity to be wrong for their Bible to be correct. So they reject and attack relativity because it is the basis of modern cosmology (13.7 bln year old universe). So Neumair is no different, he rejects the 2nd postulate of special relativity for the same religious agenda.

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    13. You can praise your religion upto the mythical 7th heaven, but lay off belittling other religions, religions which you have never studied. The Bible doesn't say the universe was created 6000 years ago at all. The hebrew word 'yom' can mean period as well as day, just like Arabic 'yawm'. besides, medieval scholars like Nachmanides did acknowledge that the six days of creation were different from ordinary days. I'm no Christian, but I have a lot of appreciation for Judaism. Unlike your faith, it doesn't condemn me to an eternal Gehinnom for not believing in its Torah(the Qur'anic word for hell is actually derived from the name of a valley near Jerusalem where garbage was burnt, that's the word the Talmud and not the Bible, uses to describe hell. So much for a divine revelation on a preserved tablet.)

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    14. By 'Bible' I mean the Tanakh, New Testament not included.

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    15. We can discuss other 'crap' in the Tanakh if you want, I have read it too, and I see through all the silly so-called contradictions and errors you bucailleists have written about it in speed-light.

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    16. wormhole said "Christian apologists are trying to prove their Bible correct, like Earth created before sun, and all the other known crap"

      Ahem! Quran 2:29

      "He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens."

      Tafsir ibn Kathir on 2:29 - "Mujahid commented on Allah's statement, "ALLAH CREATED THE EARTH BEFORE HEAVEN, and when He created the earth, smoke burst out of it ... Sahih Al-Bukhari records that when Ibn `Abbas was question about this matter, he said that THE EARTH WAS CREATED BEFORE HEAVEN, and the earth was spread out only after the creation of the heaven. Several Tafsir scholars of old and recent times also said similarly,"

      :)

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    17. @CaptainDisguise,
      The concept of smoke bursting out thru the earth and then forming heaven is something that I read in the book of the Roman philosopher Lucretius. He wrote that as the primitive earth coalesced, the lighter atoms of ether were squeezed out and these constituted the ether, and this formed the heavens. I have written about it in my blog here:
      http://debunkingbucailleism.blogspot.in/2012/10/a-very-nebulous-claim.html

      BTW, I really enjoyed reading 'Much Ado About Nothing' by you and Martin. Simply mind-blowing!
      Main aap pe bilkul fida hoon :)

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    18. @wormhole199,
      If I'm right, the Qur'an doesn't claim that angels are made of light, it's the Hadith literature; because in Judaism, angels are purely spiritual beings. Let's see what the Ahadith have to say about creation:

      Abu Haraira reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) took hold of my hands and said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on Monday and He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on Wednesday and lie caused the animals to spread on Thursday and created Adam (peace be upon him) after 'Asr on Friday; the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, i.e. between afternoon and night.
      (Sahih Muslim 39:6707)

      Question: Who created the days of the week? :D

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    19. The Quran says that in God's Throne time Earth is 2 days old while the Heavens, Earth and everything in between are 6 days old (2/6 = 1/3):

      [Quran 7.54] And your Lord, Allah, who created the Heavens and the Earth in six days and then settled on the Throne...

      Those six days are on the Throne; so the frame of reference for creation is the Throne, not Earth.

      [Quran 41.9] Say: "Is it that you deny Him [Allah] who created the Earth in two days? And you claim others to be equal to Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds."

      Also those two days are on the Throne. The frame of reference for creation is still the Throne, not Earth. When God says that He created the Heavens, Earth and EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN (including you and me) in six days this means that He is referring to the period of existence. Earth has been in existence for 2 days (out of 6).

      In God's Throne time, Earth is 2 days old while the Heavens, Earth and everything in between are 6 days old. This makes the age of Earth to be one third the age of the universe (2/6 = 1/3). Similarly in Earth time, the age of Earth is 4.567 billion years while the age of the universe is 13.7 billion years; this is also one third (4.567 bln/13.7 bln = 1/3). So it is the same ratio in Earth time or in God's Throne time. The theory of general relativity explains why time at God's Throne passes slower than on Earth. General relativity explains why 6 days passed at God's Throne but we measured it as 13.7 billion years (that is each day at God's Throne measures around 2.28 billion years on Earth). So according to the Quran:

      God's Throne > Paradise/Hell > Earth

      The smaller the mass, the faster the time.

      http://www.speed-light.info/miracles_of_quran/age_of_universe.htm

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    20. @wormhole199,
      You're simly copy-pasting from your site. I have read this before, and I'm not fooled-- even if you are.

      Prove that the six days of creation refer to God on His throne, and not six days of the week (according to the Hadith I supplied, they are six weekdays). If these are days of God, then why did Muhammad speak as if they were weekdays, even naming them Sunday, Monday etc.?

      The Qur'an merely says that the earth was created in two days, it does not say on the last two days, nor does it indicate anywhere that the present times are also included in the six days. Again, from the Hadith I have given, it seems as if clay and mountains were created first, vegetation next, and then light! How can this be? How do plants grow without light?

      That is another miracle claim debunked, your claim about the age of the universe. Besides if one day of God is 1000 years (from Surah 22:47, which is clearly originating from Psalm 90, which is attributed to Moses, traditionally the writer of Torah), then the universe should be only around 6000 years, (according to the Qur'an, and not according to Science, or even a careful interpretation of Torah) and not 15 billion, and you seem to think that that the last two days are still current! So the earth is only 2000 years old according to you!

      My humble advice to you and to those of your ilk: I respect your religion, and other religions as legitimate philosophical and ethical systems, but PLEASE do not try to mingle faith with Science, it fools only gullible Muslims, and is scorned by real scientists.

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    21. Moslems take their religion from the Quran, not hadeeth. Moslems compare all alleged hadeeth to the Quran; if there is a contradiction then the hadeeth gets rejected. Your alleged hadeeth contradicts the Quran, so it is rejected. This is the task of Islamic scholars, not you.

      Delete
    22. Good point. I agree I'm no scholar of Islam. But since the Qur'an doesn't say anything about angels being light, will you reject that tradition also? After all, you have said that you take your religion from the Qur'an. This 'alleged' Hadith, as you say
      could be fake too.

      Isn't it funny how Bucailleists use the Ahadith to milk out scientific miracles that aren't really there from the Qur'an, and then reject other Ahadith from the same books when shown that they contradict science?

      However, in my opinion the Hadith I gave does not really contradict the Qur'an, since the Qur'an does not go into the details of how the universe was created. It contradicts Science, and that's why you are rejecting it. Besides, why did Muslim, who lived a thousand years before us, declare this as 'Sahih'? Surely he was a better judge of its value than you.

      Delete
    23. Surah 22:47--
      Sahih International: And they urge you to hasten the punishment. But Allah will never fail in His promise. And indeed, a day with your Lord is like a thousand years of those which you count.
      This seems to say that one day for Allah is 1000 years. By your logic, wormhole, Allah created the heavens and the earth is 6000 years, and you think we are still in the last two days, so definitely according to your fallacious logic, the Qur'an teaches a 6000-year-old universe.

      N.B: I am not finding fault with the Qur'an, merely exposing your logical errors.

      Delete
    24. Moslems believe that Paradise and Hell are both much bigger and much more massive than Earth (but still much smaller than God's Throne). The theory of general relativity says that time passes slower near an object more massive than Earth (clocks run slower in stronger gravitational fields). So according to general relativity, time should pass in Paradise/Hell much slower than on Earth. Moslems say that this is what Allah says. It is stated in the Quran that 1 day in Paradise/Hell measures a 1000 years on Earth:

      [Quran 22.47] They challenge you to bring forth that torture [in Hell] and Allah will not break His promise; a day of your Lord [Paradise/Hell promise] is like a thousand years of what you count.

      Here God promises those who do not believe in Hell and punishment that each day of their torture in Hell will measure a thousand years on Earth. So according to the Quran, time passes faster on Earth than in Paradise/Hell. But this agrees with the theory of general relativity which says that time passes slower near bigger mass. Paradise and Hell are much more massive than Earth and time should pass there much slower than on Earth.

      Our solar system is 4.567 billion years old. Earth started accreting concurrently with the sun and our neighbouring planets 4.567 bln years ago. However the universe is 13.7 ± 0.2 bln years old. This places the age of Earth at one third the age of the universe (4.567 bln/13.7 bln = 1/3). Moslems say that this is what Allah says. The Quran says that in God's Throne time Earth is 2 days old while the Heavens, Earth and everything in between are 6 days old (2/6 = 1/3):

      [Quran 7.54] And your Lord, Allah, who created the Heavens and the Earth in six days and then settled on the Throne...

      Those six days are on the Throne; so the frame of reference for creation is the Throne, not Earth.

      [Quran 41.9] Say: "Is it that you deny Him [Allah] who created the Earth in two days? And you claim others to be equal to Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds."

      Also those two days are on the Throne. In God's Throne time, Earth is 2 days old while the Heavens, Earth and everything in between are 6 days old. This makes the age of Earth to be one third the age of the universe (2/6 = 1/3). Similarly in Earth time, the age of Earth is 4.567 billion years while the age of the universe is 13.7 billion years; this is also one third (4.567 bln/13.7 bln = 1/3). So it is the same ratio in Earth time or in God's Throne time. The theory of general relativity explains why time at God's Throne passes slower than on Earth. General relativity explains why 6 days passed at God's Throne but we measured it as 13.7 billion years (that is each day at God's Throne measures around 2.28 billion years on Earth). So according to the Quran:

      God's Throne > Paradise/Hell > Earth

      The smaller the mass, the faster the time.

      http://www.speed-light.info/miracles_of_quran/age_of_universe.htm

      Delete
    25. @wormhole,
      You're reading too much into the text as usual! Prove to us that the Qur'an teaches that the earth was created in the last two days of creation, and that these two days are still current!

      Secondly, the verse says "one day OF YOUR LORD". This means one day of Allah, not one day in Paradise or your mythical hell, where I'm supposed to be turned into Varma-shawarma. :)

      Frankly, I think you are only demeaning God by saying God is bound by space and time. At least Jews take Psalm 90:4 to mean that God is timeless. That is also the meaning of 2 Peter 3:4.

      "Moslems believe..."
      You can believe in whatever you want, that the Qur'an speaks of light speed, or in fairies created from smoke, or in mythical beasts that can transport one from the Hijaz to Mount Tsiyon and then to the mythical seventh heaven.

      *And we believesss in Hobbitsesss, yess Preciousss*

      Delete
    26. Since one day of YOUR LORD is 1000 years, by plain interpretation, one day of Throne Time is 1000 human years. You must first interpret the Qur'an in the light of the Qur'an, then you can try deceiving yourself and others by crossbreeding the Qur'an and science to make weird mutated monsters of pseudo-science that we can have fun debunking.

      The text doesn't say one day in your mythical Paradise or your mythical hell is 1000 days. That's what you're trying to read into the text.

      Where does the Qur'an say that Paradise and hell are much bigger than earth? You may believe it is, but hey, I believe in Elves

      CONTD.

      Delete
    27. @Varma To make a long story short, I am only interested in your physics. You insist that the speed of light is the same in ALL frames, inertial or not. Physics wise this is garbage.

      Delete
    28. You're unbelievable! I'm not making any points on physics. I did not say ANYTHING about the speed of light in any frames. All I ever did was expose your 'cretinous' claims, for lack of a stronger word. Your claims on the Qur'an speaking of the speed of light or relativity or even the bigger face-palm, WORMHOLES and the age of the universe (Man, I really envy you for your imagination!) have been well-debunked. You are reading things into my comments that I never said, no wonder you read non-existent miracles into the Qur'an and non-existent errors into the Torah. One thing I'm certain of, you have outdone Bucaille and Zakir Naik in eisegesis. If they institute a prize for the biggest Bucailleist of all time, I'm going to nominate you.

      Delete
    29. @Varma Oh yes you did. You read the errors of your friends on this page and you didn't correct them.

      Delete
    30. I don't know much of physics, so I did not comment on that aspect. But your claims have all been debunked anyway, and that's what matters to me. What's the secret of your incredible imagination?

      Delete
    31. BTW, Spinoza has shown that a time dilation of 1 day = 37 years also proves that Lightning was traveling through Sauron's wormhole at the speed of light.

      Delete
    32. As we say in India "Khisyani Billi Khamba Noche!" i.e., The frustrated cat scratches the post.

      Delete
    33. @Varma "BTW, Spinoza has shown that a time dilation of 1 day = 37 years also proves that Lightning was traveling through Sauron's wormhole at the speed of light."

      I just want to keep this for the record.

      Delete
  8. I think this claim should replace embryology as the flagship miracle of the Bucailleists: just look at it-- it looks grand, very scientific, very elegant, and ultimately a wild, baseless, foolish claim. Just like Bucailleism.

    ReplyDelete
  9. @Spinoza You said:
    "Either the author of this miracle claim knows no maths whatsoever, or he (and I'd bet my house it's a he) is a lying charlatan who knows full well what he's doing - which is trying to mislead gullible, vulnerable people into believing Islam is rational and scientific.

    What a despicable b*stard."

    Well it turned out to be you.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "however we can calculate at what percentage of the speed of light those angels are traveling relative to an observer on Earth" - er...doesn't your quote just prove my point, wormhole.
      So they ARE claiming that they can calculate what percentage of the speed of light the angels are travelling (I can't believe I'm typing this..)and I stand by my original assertion that the author of this claim either knows no maths or is a despicable so-and-so.

      Delete
    2. For God's sake - what's so difficult, man?
      Your miracle seeker buddies use a verse in the Qur'an to claim that an angel travels in a day the same distance a man can travel in 50,000 years. They use this difference to "work out" how fast an angel travels by using an equation which the author of this blog has shown to be utterly useless...and you still bang on about lunar orbits?!
      Accept defeat on this one and move on. Life's too short and there ain't no after-life so just enjoy it!

      Delete
  10. Everyone is mad!
    I think this is a language issue? These days we regularly use numbers to signify "infinity" or "forever" (such as"zillion" for example and we use terms like "takes ages", or "that will take forever" - these are not literal - when we say "it tales forever and a day" - that's not what we mean
    It's very commonplace to use numbers in this way - so 50,000 years could easily be a colloquialism of the time rather than an actual number

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    Replies
    1. Too right, jasmine! The whole world is going nowhere fast. Enjoy your time...

      Delete
  11. @wormhole
    "v is the velocity of angels in this case (which we intend to calculate and then compare to the known speed of light).

    c is the nominal speed of light 299792.458 km/s.

    From the above equation we can solve for the unknown velocity"
    Therefore the author of this claim IS stating he can work out the speed of angels. I think wormhole you are thinking of another miracle claim on the same site. Perhaps Spinoza should tackle that one next seeing as you seem to be so convinced about it...
    Theo

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  12. The miracle that wormhole is referring to is based upon 32:5.
    Spinoza is debunking the miracle claim based upon 70:4 (which to be fair to him is all he claimed to be debunking - perhaps he shouldn't have called it THE speed of light miracle claim)
    Theo

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    Replies
    1. Yes you got it right, Spinoza is attempting to debunk the speed of light miracle, but instead he attacked another miracle about time dilation. There Moslems make a comparison: "Outside gravitational fields 50,000 years vs. one day shows angels traveling at 12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day; it is the same speed in km/sec." But Spinoza hides their actual claim and accuses them of CALCULATING the speed of light from time dilation. This strategy is used by most Islam bashers.

      Delete
    2. Please quit your jawing about miracles. Everyone here but you sees through such rubbish.

      Delete
    3. @wormhole199,
      "attempting to debunk"? Whom are you trying to kid? Spinoza has already debunked the wormhole claim, he's destroyed it into smithereens! Now that I look at the claim, I doubt it even needs debunking, since the text itself does not speak of any wormholes!

      The miracles you offer are good entertainment though, unintentional humour is often the best from of humour.

      Delete
  13. I think this is all the verses are meant to mean:
    A guy is talking to God and asks, "Hey God, what does 100 million years seem like to you?"
    God answered, "One hundred million years ? That's like a second to me."
    Then the man asks, "Hey God, what's 100 million pounds seem like to you?"
    One hundred million pounds? It seems like a penny to me."
    So the guy says, "Hey God, could I borrow a penny?"
    And God answers, "Sure. Just a second."

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    Replies
    1. I read that story many years ago. Quite witty!

      Delete
    2. @Spinoza. Nice story :) Btw. I was wondering, if an angel takes 1 God's day to reach him from earth, consider it to be Gabriel or jibreel (may be to ask for a days leave on his job and God denies so he returns back sadly :P ). When it returns back all prophets collectively would have been dead. So an angel that deals with worldy issues can never get back to God.

      Delete
  14. @wormhole199,
    There is NO speed of light miracle in Surah 32:5, just your overactive imagination. Spinoza is not debunking your claims in that, he's just debunking the claim that the 1 day= 50000 years verse shows that angels travel close to the speed of light. Well, so does Spinoza (PBUH) the Prophet's magic hamster!

    I think I have answered your 32:5 miracle claim in my previous comments.

    Also, Spinoza doesn't need to invent any miracle claim, you Bucailleists (I refuse to say Muslims, because there are many Muslims who are sane enough to keep religion and science separate) do a very good job (or shall I say a very bad job) by yourselves. Frankly, we have you to thank for our blogs; they are for people like you!

    BTW, are you from Lebanon? I loved reading Khalil Gibran!

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    Replies
    1. Your magic hamster should figure out the time dilation that occurs at 0.5c and then compare it to 6000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day.

      Delete
    2. Bit late for wormhole to see this, but for anyone unfortunate enough to read his comment about 0.5c, Spinoza is spot on with his Hamster point. And wormhole is either continuing to demonstrate his stupidity or being highly disingenuous with his 0.5c challenge.

      At 0.5c the time dilation factor is only 1.15. Everyone familiar with relativity knows that it grows exponentially as the velocity becomes a higher proportion of c. Does he seriously think the verse would have said 1 day for Allah is like 1.15 days!?! At a bare minimum someone might say, perhaps 1 day for him is like 1 year (for a lunar year, that would be 12 times 27.3days = 328 days). Your angels would already have to move far over 99% of c to have that time dilation as shown step by step:

      328 = 1/(1-v^2/c^2)^0.5
      1/328=(1-v^2/c^2)^0.5
      (1/328)^2 = 1-v^2/c^2
      0.0000093 = 1-v^2/c^2
      1 - 0.0000093 = 0.99999 = v^2/c^2

      We are only interested in the ratio of v to c so treating c as 1:
      0.99999 = v^2/1^2
      0.99999 = v^2
      v = 0.999995 of the speed of light!

      And this is for 1 year, let alone 1000 or more which sounds better rhetorically. So you can see how increasing how long our time is for Allah's day rapidly gets those angels moving extremely close to the speed of light (if you buy into the silly interpretation linking it to angels etc), and anything longer just gets it exponentially closer (though can never actually get you to c itself).

      Delete
  15. Time dilation occurs at all velocities, it becomes appreciable at velocities close to light speed. Why do you keep harping on 12000 or 6000 lunar orbits? Didn't I show previously that your 32:5 miracle is so bunkum that even 'retarded' doesn't do it justice?

    I can claim that the magic hamster (I'll refer to him as Lightning henceforth, a la Buraq) is flying to Iluvatar, besides Whom there's no other God ( I am a LOTR fan), through a wormhole that Sauron inadvertently left open when he escaped after his ring was destroyed, as can be read in the Holy Book of the Prophet Tolkein (PBUH) who also prophesised about Spinoza. We can start a religion based on the LOTR and the Silarillion, and I'm sure there will be more takers than for Christianity or Islam; what's the difference, all three are mythologies!

    ReplyDelete
  16. More takers than for Hinduism also, I treat all religions equally :)

    ReplyDelete
  17. BTW, wormhole, where does the Qur'an say that the sun was there before the earth? After all, heaven and earth separating, a rehashed Sumerian myth, is what you folks claim is the Big Bang! Paraphrasing Einstein, I agree with him that human stupidity is infinite, even if the universe may not be so.

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  18. @Spinoza Your magic hamster should figure out the time dilation that occurs at 0.5c and then compare it to 6000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day.

    ReplyDelete
  19. I'm tired of hearing of lunar orbits. Let us look into how wormhole interprets 32:5--

    (Allah) Rules the cosmic affair from the heavens to the Earth. Then this affair travels to Him a distance in one day, at a measure of one thousand years of what you count.

    Let's look at '1000 years of what you count". What did 7th-century Arabs count to tell the time? The phases of the moon. They did not calculate how much the moon traveled in one year.

    people then, according to wormhole himself, counted distance in days. So a city of 3 days' distance is a city that takes 3 days to reach, not 3 days of what distance the moon travels. Why then does wormhole read so much into this plain verse?

    Allah knows best!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Suppose I were to write to the ancient Arabs, "I have a wagon without horses (aka car) that travels a distance in one day, the measure of which is ten days of what you count."
      What do they count? The phases of the moon. How do they count distance (since wormhole thinks the text of 32:5 is speaking of distance)? In terms of how many days it will take them to travel a distance by horse/camel. Definitely not how much distance the moon will travel in 10 days.

      Delete
  20. Now let's turn our attention to Hindu mythology, specifically to a scripture called the Srimad-Bhagavatam. In the 10th canto of the Bhagavatam, Chapter 13, briefly:
    The god Vishnu is born on earth as Krishna. Though born as a prince, he is raised among cowherds. As a child, when he was out grazing cattle with other boys, the god Brahma, to test krishna, stole the calves and the cowherd boys and hid them. Then he went to his world, Satyaloka. Realizing this, Krishna multiplied himself in the form of all the calves and boys so that none else was the wiser. Brahma returned to earth after what was a moment of his reckoning, a 'truti', which is less than a second in Hindu reckoning. But actually one year had passed. A truti is around 1/16.875 of a second.
    When he saw Krishna's superior powers, he pleaded forgiveness.

    That's the mythology, now if we compare Brahma's truti with one human year [1 year this way is 16.875*86400 (seconds in a day)*29.5 (the Hindu calendar is lunisolar too)*12 trutis] we're sure to get a number even closer to the speed of light than what wormhole got from his calculations!

    Like wormhole, I'd like to ask, how could the writer of the Bhagavatam know about wormholes?

    ReplyDelete
  21. Read more on this particular myth here:
    http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto10/chapter13.html

    ReplyDelete
  22. This myth mimics time dilation, but time dilation only occurs by acceleration/gravity. Either is missing in your story. And no you cannot calculate speed of light from time dilation. Moslems never claimed so: "We cannot calculate the speed of light from this time dilation...". So Spinoza is either a liar or just an idiot.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. er - neither, I hope.
      You suggest that speed of angels (not the speed of light) can be calculated from an equation which is totally meaningless. To then compare that speed to the speed of light calculated elsewhere is itself then meaningless since the first figure is gibberish.
      Do you, or do you not admit that the equation is nonsense?

      Delete
  23. @wormhole199,
    I now understand what you were trying to say, you never calculated light speed from the time dilation equation, you only used it to calculate the speed of the angels, am I right?

    ReplyDelete
  24. Yes, then we compared it to the speed of angels at 12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day; it is the same speed in km/sec.

    ReplyDelete
  25. BTW, what makes you think that Brahma couldn't have accelerated? And tell me where the Qur'an verse 70:4 speaks of angels accelerating to relativistic speeds. I can read things into the Bhagavatam too :)

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    Replies
    1. There are two angels on your shoulders right now, so their velocity relative to you is zero. However when they commute to the Preserved Tablet they travel at 12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day. This is acceleration whether you like it or not.

      Delete
  26. "There are two angels on your shoulders right now."
    I don't believe that. If I wanted myths I would rather choose the Silmarillion [wow, what a weirdo geekI am :)]
    BTW that's also a Jewish/Christian concept, that people have guardian angels. The idea that angels are somehow 'of light' is also a Christian concept. And Brahma to travel to his kingdom would have to accelerate.

    Another thing, you called Spinoza names, but have you considered what you do?
    For instance, in your site you wrote,
    The Christian Bible says that it rains because someone spills the water jars of heaven Job 38:37.

    However, the verse is: Who doth number the clouds by wisdom? And the bottles of the heavens, Who doth cause to lie down?
    Anyone who reads the WHOLE verse can understand that the bottles of heaven here are the same as clouds. Hebrew poetry uses a lot of parallelism.

    Now if you missed the glaringly obvious parallelism in the two halves of this verse, then you really are an idiot, but if you misquoted it to deliberately malign the Tanakh, then you're a deceiver.

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    Replies
    1. I'm sorry if my last comment offended you, I don't really like to call you names. But please do look into your own inconsistencies.

      Delete
  27. I also don't believe in any preserved tablets. The only tablets I care about are pharmacological ones, and blessed be God, I need them only rarely.

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  28. Wormhole199 seems quite the prolific debater. However his position is completely fallacious. The above description serves only to add physics terms on top of a hand wave to make the cover up that the hand wave does not equate the numbers.

    I would highly recommend Silvern777's responses on youtube and elsewhere if you are tempted to buy into this.

    I would also recommend the back and forth I had with him on this unfortunately named debate: http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/showthread.php/25412-Islam-is-not-a-religion-but-a-death-cult-of-misogynistic-pedophiles?p=511261&viewfull=1#post511261

    ReplyDelete
  29. Give me a mathematical equation for the trinity. How can all be 100% equal and All one.
    If God is 100% alive, how can any % of God die on a cross.
    Your math equation must show, how 1 part of 3 can die and all still remain at 100% equally alive and God.

    Please give me your best math equation for this miracle.

    Thank you,

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    1. I'll leave that for Christians to answer, Anon, since I am an atheist.
      I have to say, however, that the analogy you are attempting to draw seems to me to be rather stretched. On the one hand we have a Muslim claim to a very specific scientific miracle and on the other a purely theological idea.

      Delete
  30. From Wikiislam article, Parameters section:

    (tl;dr - apart from anything else, the "miracle" relies on the ratio between 2 parameters being constant, like c, when in fact they are not)

    "The speed of light is constant while the rotation of the Earth, due to a tidal torque between itself and the moon, is slowing down. Therefore, the days of the Earth are becoming longer. Angular momentum in the Earth-Moon system is conserved over time, so as Earth's rotation slows, the moon is boosted to a higher, and slower orbit. To orbit the Earth, the Moon has to travel a little more each time. How can one measure something that is constant with things that are variable?

    Note that while both the length of an Earth day and lunar orbit distance are increasing, the ratio between them is not constant, but increases over time (contrary to what one Islamic website claims). This will be easily demonstrated using Kepler's 3rd law of planetary motion, and the fact that when two rotating bodies orbit one another, eventually the smaller body, and then the larger becomes tidally locked facing the other. The moon is already tidally locked with Earth so that the same side always faces us.

    First, note that the radius of the lunar orbit is proportional to the distance covered in its orbit (just like the radius and circumference of a circle). So it can be said that the miracle requires that the ratio of Earth's day length to the lunar orbit radius is a constant over time. As per Kepler's 3rd law, lunar orbital period must grow proportionally more than its radius (the ratio of period^2 to radius^3 remains constant for a particular system). Now if the length of Earth's day only increased in proportion to the increase in lunar orbit radius (as the miracle requires), then the lunar orbital period (which must grow faster than the radius) would outgrow the length of Earth's day more and more. The length of Earth's day couldn't increase enough to match the lunar orbit period such that the same side of Earth becomes tidally locked facing the moon. Thus the miracle has a requirement that contradicts what we know from physics.

    Scientists believe that when the Earth was young, it span ten times faster around its axes than it is spinning today. Since the speed of light has remained the same all along, 4.5 billion years ago, in one day light traveled one tenth of the distance that it travels today.

    There are nearly 4.5 million thousand years since the Moon is orbiting the Earth. Since each millennium the length of the day and orbit of the Moon change in an increasing ratio, in which one of these 4.5 million millennia the Moon traveled the same distance that the light travels in one day? The claim is wrong, but even if true, only one time out of 4.5 million times the two numbers could match. Then again even a broken watch is right twice every day.

    The very notion of measuring the speed of light with the orbit of the Moon or the length of the day is a fallacy, that is because the yardstick is constantly changing. Such an error only reveals Dr. Hassab-Elnaby's lack of understanding of the basic principles of science."

    Makes sense

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    Replies
    1. @Anonymous
      For the first 9 billion years there was no Earth, no moon, no nothing... so at that time this miracle wasn't valid. So what? It is true today and this is what matters.
      You said "This will be easily demonstrated using Kepler's 3rd law of planetary motion, and the fact that when two rotating bodies orbit one another, eventually the smaller body, and then the larger becomes tidally locked facing the other."
      Energy transfer and moon locking has nothing to do with Kepler. Actually Kepler had no idea what gravity was. So according to Kepler there is no reason for the moon to recede.
      You said “Now if the length of Earth's day only increased in proportion to the increase in lunar orbit radius (as the miracle requires), then the lunar orbital period (which must grow faster than the radius) would outgrow the length of Earth's day more and more.”
      Lunar orbital period must grow faster than radius!?!? What??? But one is in meters and the other is in seconds.
      You said “ The length of Earth's day couldn't increase enough to match the lunar orbit period such that the same side of Earth becomes tidally locked facing the moon. Thus the miracle has a requirement that contradicts what we know from physics.”
      Earth or the central mass could have enough rotational kinetic energy for the satellite to escape. In that case they will not lock, I can promise you this. If the moon really formed by an Earth impactor then the law of conservation of energy requires the impactors potential energy (at infinity) to be stored in Earth’s spin. But since ocean friction is transferring this energy back to the moon then when the distance to the moon increases back to infinity then Earth’s spin should return to its pre-impact value (assuming the moon is same mass as impactor). Since pre-impact Earth day wasn't infinity (Earth’s spin wasn’t zero) then it never really locked with the impactor. Since it never locked with the impactor then it will never lock with moon simply because it is the reverse process. So Earth has excess rotational kinetic energy. All models that assume Earth locks with moon actually violate the law of conservation of energy. So the miracle in the Quran is compatible with impactor and conservation of energy.

      Delete
    2. lets just say it was aliens more believable than an invisible "god"

      Delete
    3. Wormhole failed badly to understand the comment he replied to. Kepler didn't need to know about tidal locking. The point of using his law is that there is a relationship between the period squared and radius cubed of an orbiting body, and this is maintained whether the body moves outward due to tidal effects or a spacecraft bumping it or whatever. Change its radius and its period will change in accordance with this law.

      "Lunar orbital period must grow faster than radius!?!? What??? But one is in meters and the other is in seconds. "
      Wormhole really should learn to read. It's clearly in context talking about the proportional change of the two quantites. As explained in the original comment, Kepler discovered by observation that "the ratio of period^2 to radius^3 remains constant for a particular system", and thus if the orbit radius increases/decreases by some proportion, the period increases/decreases by an even greater proportion, maintaining this period^2 to radius^3 ratio.

      As for the rest, wow. Wormhole should write a scientific paper to great acclaim showing professional physicists that they are wrong to say that the moon's rate of recession will slow and stabilize as earth's increasing day length catches up the increasing lunar orbit period (the tidal torque ends). This is of course in principle - the sun will have long since destroyed the earth and moon before that can happen. But until then the day length is gradually gaining on the lunar orbit period.

      Delete
  31. The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day, the measure of which is fifty thousand years.
    Do not base speed of angels on the speed of light - However, using the speed of light as a measurement; my calculation gives me the speed of angels ascending at 926,000 light years per second; only as far as the beginning point of light - the big bang. Still, the big bang (heaven) can be only one bang of the seven heavens. If that is so the angels - will travel more than seven times faster than 926,000 light years a second!

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  32. Unfortunately, even as an Atheist, I support @wormhole's view.

    This is me being as reasonable as possible. But, I don't see how that proves the Quran to be from God. This could have been easily added to the Quran. This could have been a coincidence, there are many possibilities.

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  33. This is a debate about cosmology/speed of light/relativity not a world championship of insults

    No need to be rude, aggressive and insulting each have a right to their opinion
    Sūrat al-ʿAlaq (العلق "The Clot")

    In the name of God, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy

    96:1 Read! In the name of your Lord who created:
    96:2 He created man from a clinging form.
    96:3 Read! Your Lord Is the Most Bountiful One
    96:4 who taught by pen,
    96:5 who taught man what he did not know.
    96:6 But man exceeds all bounds
    96:7 when he thinks he is self-sufficient:
    96:8 [Prophet], all will return to your Lord.
    96:9 Have you noticed the man who forbids,
    96:10 [Our] servant to pray?
    96:11 Have you noticed whether he is rightly guided,
    96:12 or encourages true piety?
    96:13 Have you noticed if he denies the truth and turns away from it?
    96:14 Does he not realize that God sees all?
    96:15 No! If he does not stop, We shall drag him by his forelock -
    96:16 A lying, sinful forelock.
    96:17 Let him summon his comrades;
    96:18 We shall summon the guards of Hell
    96:19 No! Do not obey him [Prophet]: bow down in worship and draw close

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  34. Chill out guys what you are arguing about and trying to prove wrong is an interpretation of a human being, I am a recent convert and I challenge anyone to prove the book wrong, not human interpretation

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    Replies
    1. would you mind telling us what convinced you that the Qur'an was the uncreated word of God, Anon?

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  35. People who believed in the quran was never about its miracles. these science fact have been brought out only in the last 30 years. the quran dated 1400 years. Most scholars even dismiss these so called scientific fact even if they were true. they say the quran is greater than that. as Allah describes it it is a living book. not like any other.

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